View Full Version : PS3-tech?
mboeller
07-Nov-2002, 12:01
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/story.html?id=1036636937
Yep, sure looks like it! (Unless it's a completely meaningless PR announcement.)
Rambus said it will show plans to get bandwidth of 6.4GB/sec per Yellowstone RDRAM chip.
If Sony uses two Yellowstone RDRAM chips, the same number as in the PS2, that would give PS3 12.8 GB/sec of main RAM bandwidth. And if they use four RDRAM chips, they'd get 25.6 GB/sec of main RAM bandwidth.
So maybe they will have enough bandwidth to feed their 16 CPUs after all.
Interesting! I wonder how much latency Yellowstone RDRAM has.
Doubt they will forgego eDRAM for the graphics though, it is still a bit shy of their 4Tb/s proposal at last years ISSCC.
Is this one still 16 bit bus ?
If Sony uses two Yellowstone RDRAM chips, the same number as in the PS2, that would give PS3 12.8 GB/sec of main RAM bandwidth. And if they use four RDRAM chips, they'd get 25.6 GB/sec of main RAM bandwidth
If they could/were to use a YellowStone based solution @ 6.4Ghz instead of 3.2Ghz, they would yeild 25GB/sec with 2 chips and 50GB/sec with 4 - as shown at the following url, slide 9.
http://www.rambus.com/rdf/presentations/070802_yellowstone.pdf
Whats interesting is that when I started looking at this a few months ago (and people here laughed at me), I found that even going back to late 1999 during a RDF conference - the 30GB/sec number for a next generation digital console keept popping up all over the place.
So maybe they will have enough bandwidth to feed their 16 CPUs after all.
Um, the idea behind Cellular Computing is to embed many simple cores on a single die with on-die memory. Do a search for it at IBM and you'll see.
PS. Why did anyone even doubt that the Next Generation Playstation wouldn't use a Rambus based solution? Okomoto was just the Keynote speaker at RDF '02 Japan.
The IBM engineers also said the first Cell would probably not have eDRAM.
The IBM engineers also said the first Cell would probably not have eDRAM.
"First, when it summarizes simply, it becomes as follows. The Cell, DRAM memory of the processor core + suitable quantity plural, builds in network interface to that perhaps, becomes the tip/chip which has autonomous computing function. The on that in the Linux base, the open source community Globus (the Globus.org) it is presumed it is the conception which actualizes the distributed computing which is based on grid protocol." - Presentation by Okamoto Noboru, GDC 2002, Translation
Even given the time lapse Id still give the IBM engineer most credibility.
zidane1strife
08-Nov-2002, 12:18
Is this one still 16 bit bus ?
Yes it is, and we know toshiba licensed the tech, so they could very well upgrade to a 32-64-128bit bus.... i'd expect the later, a couple of those and they could cause quite a shock/ruckus... with 300GB/sec...
That would be about 1500 pins just for signalling, at second generation 6.4 GHz signalling rates (which are probably not going to be reached at consumer price point in time for PS3).
Panajev2001a
09-Nov-2002, 01:00
That's a good find :)
Vince, if CELL ends up in PS3 this main-RAM could be pushed mostly for the GS3 as the CELL chip would need external main RAM perhaps less than the GPU ( which needs to store all the textures, etc.. )...
randycat99
09-Nov-2002, 03:18
What's with this obsession to make a narrow serial bus wide? A bus is good, not because of certain features alone, but because of the end results. The whole point of a high performance serial bus is to be narrow but very high clockrate. Making it (or wishing it to be) arbitrarily wide just because other buses are so shouldn't be the focus.
archie4oz
09-Nov-2002, 05:08
You don't widen a narrow bus, you utilize several of them in parallel.
megadrive0088
10-Nov-2002, 19:41
It would be nice to see a PS3 with at least 48-50GB/sec of main memory bandwith--as much, or slightly more than the graphics memory bandwidth of PS2. Or even 96-100 GB/sec using 8 chips @ 6.4 Ghz :D
Though the really insane numbers are most likely going to be on GS3 :o
archie4oz
10-Nov-2002, 22:33
Well there have already been GS prototypes (experimental stuff like the I-32) that have gotten upwards of 200GB/sec and DRAM to page-buffer rates of around 600-700GB/sec...
One can only imagine upcoming stuff...
randycat99
12-Nov-2002, 00:04
Will that Blue-ray disc drive be in there? Does it even matter if it is not, given the massive storage capability for games with just a conventional DVD-ROM?
PC-Engine
12-Nov-2002, 01:36
Will that Blue-ray disc drive be in there? Does it even matter if it is not, given the massive storage capability for games with just a conventional DVD-ROM?
If it wants to be backwards compatible with regulard DVDs then no as Blue-ray is not backwards compatible with regular DVDs. Anyway the DVD forum has already adopted the next generation DVD standard jointly proposed by NEC and Toshiba which is backwards compatible with all existing DVD standards.
Tagrineth
12-Nov-2002, 01:43
Will that Blue-ray disc drive be in there? Does it even matter if it is not, given the massive storage capability for games with just a conventional DVD-ROM?
If it wants to be backwards compatible with regulard DVDs then no as Blue-ray is not backwards compatible with regular DVDs. Anyway the DVD forum has already adopted the next generation DVD standard jointly proposed by NEC and Toshiba which is backwards compatible with all existing DVD standards.
Or they could just go the 'standard' route and have two seperate lasers or something...
Hell, that would go well with Sony's difficult-to-programme-but-great-returns-with-effort mentality. Imagine if you will a disc drive with multiple independant lasers, each of which can be controlled independantly for vastly improved data throughput and seek times. :D Load times...? What are those?
BenSkywalker
12-Nov-2002, 01:44
Will that Blue-ray disc drive be in there? Does it even matter if it is not, given the massive storage capability for games with just a conventional DVD-ROM?
I hope that all the next gen consoles use Blue Ray. It was recently announced that DMC2 would be utilizing 2 DVDs, and that's for a system with 32MB system RAM and rather limited texturing capabilities. Given that all of the next gen systems should run 1080i as a native resolution I would hope that we will see significantly improved texturing over even the best titles of today, inclduing the use of 3D textures. Then there is my hope of HD DVD utilizing MPEG2 instead of MPEG4 which would require Blue Ray(less artifacts with MPEG2). I'm really hoping that Blue Ray makes it in to all the next gen consoles.
Edit- The DVD consortium already adopted MPEG4? Does anyone have a link? :(
PC-Engine
12-Nov-2002, 01:52
http://www.eet.com/sys/news/OEG20021108S0048
marconelly!
12-Nov-2002, 01:55
If it wants to be backwards compatible with regulard DVDs then no as Blue-ray is not backwards compatible with regular DVDs.
Actually, it is. Even the prototype Blue Ray devices presented few months ago on some tradeshow in Japan were able to play DVD movies. I am not sure if the DVD discs had to be placed in the empty Blue Ray disc shell, however.
Anyway the DVD forum has already adopted the next generation DVD standard jointly proposed by NEC and Toshiba which is backwards compatible with all existing DVD standards.
On the actual market, where the Blue Ray is backed by dozens of the most influental companies, that means exactly diddly squat.
It was recently announced that DMC2 would be utilizing 2 DVDs, and that's for a system with 32MB system RAM and rather limited texturing capabilities.
I think they've done that for marketing reasons rather than technical. Think movie releases on 2-3 single layer discs, or how most movies opt for two discs instead of using the other side of the first disc. It gives customer more perceived 'value' :\
In DMC2 case, first disc has Dante's story, second has Lucia's story. If they wanted, I'm sure they could have used one 9GB disc instead, like Xenosaga is doing.
BenSkywalker
12-Nov-2002, 02:04
Thanks PC.
That article makes things seem a bit, odd. At least they are going with a higher bit rate enabling them to utilize MPEG2.
They are still planning on moving to blue laser, just not using Blue Ray. The backwards compatibility issue with BlueRay, based everything I have read, doesn't have anything to do with end users but is more based on the tools utilized for DVDs. Does anyone know if Matsushita and Sony have signed on yet? I would hope we can avoid another Beta/VHS debacle.
PC-Engine
12-Nov-2002, 02:07
On the actual market, where the Blue Ray is backed by dozens of the most influental companies, that means exactly diddly squat.
Umm..the original DVD standard also had two opposing camps, but the standard that was adopted and used today was the one that Toshiba pioneered :wink:
Also being backwards compatible with MILLIONS of existing DVDs isn't diddly squat.
marconelly!
12-Nov-2002, 02:14
As I said, Blye Ray IS backwards compatible and it was demonstrated, AFAIK.
Need I remind about DVD+RW/R format, which was made a standard, regardless of the fact DVD forum never supported it.
It all depends on what companies (and how many of them) back something up.
PC-Engine
12-Nov-2002, 02:14
An older article.
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20020829S0062
DVD-RAM is also a standard that isn't gaining too much support why? because it isn't practicle just like Blu-ray. Of course there's nothing to stop SONY from using a Blu-ray drive in PS3 though.
archie4oz
12-Nov-2002, 04:00
Umm..the original DVD standard also had two opposing camps, but the standard that was adopted and used today was the one that Toshiba pioneered
No it isn't. It's the current format is a compromise between Toshiba/Matsushita's proposal and the Sony/Philips proposal... I imagine any future standards will be just the same, a compromise to please all the vendors participating...
PC-Engine
12-Nov-2002, 04:42
The NEC/Toshiba standard has already been adopted so the point is moot. Blu-ray has been dropped :wink:
The Blu-Ray group does not recognise the DVD-Forum as having any authority in this matter or even being the right forum for standardization of next generation formats.
This will be fought out on the market, as marconelly said ... the DVD-Forum was left by the wayside for the writable DVD format too.
randycat99
12-Nov-2002, 05:25
Sounds almost like the Blue-Man Group! :P
marconelly!
12-Nov-2002, 05:27
Or a mech from the next Metal Gear game :))
BenSkywalker
12-Nov-2002, 05:53
No it isn't. It's the current format is a compromise between Toshiba/Matsushita's proposal and the Sony/Philips proposal... I imagine any future standards will be just the same, a compromise to please all the vendors participating...
If Matsushita and Sony are backing the same standard(Blue Ray) then there really isn't any battle. If the DVD cosortium attempts to take them on they will die, particuarly given the backing that Blue Ray has. I've been looking around at available information and it appears that BluRay is a done deal for the next gen.
The Blu-Ray group does not recognise the DVD-Forum as having any authority in this matter or even being the right forum for standardization of next generation formats.
This will be fought out on the market, as marconelly said ... the DVD-Forum was left by the wayside for the writable DVD format too.
Thank God. I realize some of you really get off to the idea of Sony getting the shaft, but it sucks when a superior technology like Blu-Ray is past over in favor of another which is better for the manufactering industry's bottom-line.
With all due respect, I really don't see Toshiba and NEC winning in a power struggle against Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita Electric Industrial, Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony and Thomson Multimedia.
A recordable media like Blu-Ray, which can record MPEG-2 in RT could open a whole host of new opertunities if the idea of a Grid or .Net powered digital distribution fabric was implimented over broadband/advanced broadband. Download HD digital media, games, et al - provided they could get the DRM secure enough.
If Matsushita and Sony are backing the same standard(Blue Ray) then there really isn't any battle. If the DVD cosortium attempts to take them on they will die, particuarly given the backing that Blue Ray has. I've been looking around at available information and it appears that BluRay is a done deal for the next gen.
Ben has spoken... http://www.smilies.org/basesmilies/worship.gif heh.
Im not entirely sure Blu-Ray is superior, Toshiba makes a convincing arguement ... and Im wondering if Blu-Ray's thinner cover layer wont make the discs (even) more fragile.
BTW we really do not need next generation DVDs for movies. You will be able to get far better quality HD video on a standard DVD with H264 than you can put on a next generation one with MPEG-2.
Im wondering if Blu-Ray's thinner cover layer wont make the discs (even) more fragile.
I don't have a picture, but I'm sure Marconelly! can find one as he's a resourceful guy (and has seen what I'm talking of on GA), but the Blu-Ray disks can infact be encased in a... um.. case. I've only seen it on the 50GB dual layered disks (not the single), but appearently, the Sony press machines can read DVDs, Blu ray in and out of the shell/case/whatever.
marconelly!
12-Nov-2002, 06:39
Yes, they can basically be encased or not. I'm not sure what does that depend on, though.
You can find a hands-on writeup on our GA friends' site - Tokyopia :)
http://www.tokyopia.com/articles.asp?articlesid=10
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1825000/images/_1829241_blu_300.jpg
Steve Dave Part Deux
12-Nov-2002, 06:40
Doesn't Matsushita also have a drive that uses a violet lazer?
BenSkywalker
12-Nov-2002, 06:44
A recordable media like Blu-Ray, which can record MPEG-2 in RT could open a whole host of new opertunities if the idea of a Grid or .Net powered digital distribution fabric was implimented over broadband/advanced broadband.
You can already do that(record MPEG2 in real time), although utilizing the higher resolution that BlueRay will allow will be very nice.
On the console front moving to BlueRay also makes a lot of sense in terms of anti piracy. Saw an ad for BB(IIRC) this week with a DVD burner for under $200. It's almost certain that by the end of next gen burners will be around in the consumer market for BlueRay, but at least it won't be available to consumers at the beginning of the life cycle. 50GBs of data sounds reasonable for next gen, although I can still see multi disk games hitting at some point.
PC-Engine
12-Nov-2002, 06:47
Anyone willing to bet on which camp will win the next gen DVD standard for HD movies and DVD-ROM drives? :lol:
It's going to come down to overall costs and cross compatibility between PCs and standalone DVD players :wink:
Fafalada
12-Nov-2002, 06:57
If Matsushita and Sony are backing the same standard(Blue Ray) then there really isn't any battle. If the DVD cosortium attempts to take them on they will die, particuarly given the backing that Blue Ray has.
Of course, the irony here being that afaik both Sony and Matsushita are members of DVD Forum also :)
At any rate, the fact BluRay is now 'nonstandard' is actually another good thing going For it - wherever there is something nonstandard, M$ and IBM are sure to follow shortly... ;)
PC-Engine
12-Nov-2002, 07:01
Of course, the irony here being that afaik both Sony and Matsushita are members of DVD Forum also
I'm suprised no one has mentioned that :lol:
I don't think consumers are going to adopt the caddie over a caddieless format.
archie4oz
12-Nov-2002, 08:40
Of course, the irony here being that afaik both Sony and Matsushita are members of DVD Forum also
So is Toshiba... :wink:
PC-Engine
12-Nov-2002, 08:43
Of course, the irony here being that afaik both Sony and Matsushita are members of DVD Forum also
So is Toshiba... :wink:
Yes and Toshiba is going with their joint format proposal with NEC :wink:
Toshiba is the chair company btw :wink:
JF_Aidan_Pryde
12-Nov-2002, 09:12
I *seriouly* hope that the next gen media will have a cartridge.
I have had way too many CDs crap out on me. And don't tell me I should *take care* of them; media should be throw-around-able.
PC-Engine
12-Nov-2002, 09:17
That's why they made jewel cases :wink:
I'd rather keep my 300+1 DVD changer thank you. 8)
Caddies are expensive, if next generation DVDs need them they will have a hard time competing against normal DVD for movies (because new compression standards will be able to put a HD movie on one just fine).
JF_Aidan_Pryde
12-Nov-2002, 11:09
I think I'm not the only one here who'd pay the extra buck or two to buy the <i>luxuary</i> to be able to leave my discs lying around and know they'll last my lifetime. And who hasn't had DVD/CD read problems before because of a bad disc? I am sooooooo sick of it. So much for 'digital world' when you see mosaic blocks on the latest movie DVDs (rental). :(
zidane1strife
12-Nov-2002, 13:14
I think I'm not the only one here who'd pay the extra buck or two to buy the <i>luxuary</i> to be able to leave my discs lying around and know they'll last my lifetime. And who hasn't had DVD/CD read problems before because of a bad disc? I am sooooooo sick of it. So much for 'digital world' when you see mosaic blocks on the latest movie DVDs (rental).
Yeah, that's what excites me the most about blu-ray... the floppy/mini-cd esque casing.... No longer will my friends used to treating CDs ultra sloppy ruin my dvds... no longer will a kid go rent GTA 5 and fuxxor the last copy... no longer will u'r kid brother scratch u'r copy of Episode III...
It's the only thing i've hated about optical media... the fragility... those disc get dust even inside my vault and within their jewel cases...
We'll finally be free people!!! I can finally buy used DVDs and games again!!!!!!! Oh the $$$$$$ i'll save!!!! It's unf#cking believable... when i first heard about this tech i knew i'd want one....
Hopefully the ps3 will also support the re-write abilities... so i can finally throw my vcr in the garbage
The present DVD format supports caddies too, nothing has changed ... I doubt caddies will be more widely used in the next round.
cybamerc
12-Nov-2002, 13:55
With the increased recording density that upcoming formats will offer caddies are an absolute neccesity IMO. Even today's optical discs are too fickle IMO. The day solid state makes a return as a viable media for mass production I will be a happy man.
maskrider
12-Nov-2002, 14:02
With the increased recording density that upcoming formats will offer caddies are an absolute neccesity IMO. Even today's optical discs are too fickle IMO. The day solid state makes a return as a viable media for mass production I will be a happy man.
I'd prefer something like a MD disc size (size like the gamecube but with a non-removable caddy) with the capacity of a DVD-9 disc.
archie4oz
12-Nov-2002, 16:48
Actually, aside from size, durability is one of the things I really dig about MD...
Tagrineth
12-Nov-2002, 19:48
That's why they made jewel cases :wink:
I'd rather keep my 300+1 DVD changer thank you. 8)
Yeah, but jewel cases break VERY VERY easily.
And does your PS2/Xbox/GCN have a disc changer built-in? Didn't think so.
PC-Engine
13-Nov-2002, 01:33
That's why they made jewel cases :wink:
I'd rather keep my 300+1 DVD changer thank you. 8)
Yeah, but jewel cases break VERY VERY easily.
And does your PS2/Xbox/GCN have a disc changer built-in? Didn't think so.
Yes jewel cases break very easily, but they still protect the disc :wink: I have a bunch of empty jewel cases that are cracked but I still use them because they still do their intended job. Just remember that the original CDROM format used caddies, but when the 3x, 4x, drives came out the caddie died really fast :lol:
Regarding consoles, there's very little incentive to use Blu-ray over the next gen DVD standard..and please don't bring up that age old argument of software piracy because if Blu-ray does become the next DVD standard which I doubt, there will be Blu-ray burners etc. Capacity isn't going to be an issue anytime soon especially when the alternative next gen DVD format can hold 30 Gigs :wink:
What we need is a successor to MiniDisc. Same size, same cartridges, but with 10-20 gigabytes of storage. Those 5" discs just don't belong in this millenia, with or without caddies.
JF_Aidan_Pryde
13-Nov-2002, 12:49
AMEN.
The MD form factor is just so much better than CD/DVD. A MD sized optical media with a Floppy like file system that can write and re-write without having to format will be the best thing.
When CDs first arrived, it felt DIGITAL. I had faith in it, knowing it's true "digital". All that changed when I first the heard "click". Then the shits just came one by one. Freezing a disc just to install something, LOL.. I had to run up and down my house trying to install a badly scratched Starcraft by freezing it! (It WORKS).
Then when I hit my first virus on a CD, my faith in it just evaporated. The CD feels as digital to me as a cassette now. MDs on the other hand, feels like what CDs *felt* like. The only removable media I own which feels truely reliable now is the Memory stick.
MD's would be great. Might further decrease console form factors as well.
archie4oz
13-Nov-2002, 22:26
Well you gotta love the durability of MO technology... I've been missing my GigaMO since I moved, and the lack of it here has been making me nutty. At least it's still alive and well in Japan...
MD's would be great. Might further decrease console form factors as well.
Well I do remember a couple of engineers joking about a handheld PSX using a derivative of MD as it's media (of course Memory Stick was also batted around)...
Anyway, even if Blu-Ray doens't take hold for the next DVD, it'll likely find a home in MO anyways...
I doubt very much of the technology carries over to magneto optical drives.
PC-Engine
14-Nov-2002, 01:54
I have a MO drive from Olympus. It's the portable external SYS.230 MB version that uses a 3.5" MO cartridges similar to MD. Back then I purchased it for $350 because there were no other rewritable alternatives so it made a lot of sense, but when CD-RW became available I haven't used it since because with CD-RW all CDROM and DVDROM drives could read the discs.
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