View Full Version : Xbox pulls into UK second place
Johnny Awesome
05-Nov-2002, 23:54
18:17 After nearly seven months at retail, Microsoft's Xbox console has finally muscled its way into the number two spot in the UK, boasting a larger installed user base than GameCube.
Despite releasing almost two months ahead of GameCube, Xbox had a slow start in the UK and Europe, with brand loyalty allowing Nintendo's console to hit the ground running.
But with the vital Christmas period approaching, Xbox has confounded expectations by pulling well clear of GameCube in weekly sales, while edging past Nintendo's machine in the all-important yearly totals.
UK figures for the week ending November 2, compiled by ChartTrack, show Xbox shifting an impressive 10,371 units, marking a rise of 42 percent on the previous week's sales, with GameCube tailing on 6,657 units - an increase of 15 percent.
The cumulative totals for 2002 make even more interesting reading, with GameCube on 230,876 since launch, and Microsoft just ahead on 233,503. But on the back of a successful new Xbox bundle, this trend seems unlikely to change, with the gap expected to widen in the run up to Christmas.
Microsoft is understandably delighted by the results, a spokesperson telling us: "We are really pleased with the positive momentum we have going into the Christmas period and are delighted that more and more gamers are experiencing the superior gaming offered by Xbox."
But this will make sobering reading for Nintendo, now faced with a much bleaker Christmas than it surely would have anticipated.
Super Mario Sunshine, despite big early sales, has simply not shifted GC units in the numbers Nintendo anticipated. Furthermore, it's no secret in development circles that bringing a title exclusively onto GameCube is a less profitable exercise that it is for PS2 and Xbox.
How Nintendo will respond to the new figures is unclear. A spokesperson for the company was unavailable for comment at the time of writing.
The ChartTrack figures as a whole, however, represent a positive overall sales rise in the run up to Christmas, with PS2 in an unassailable position, shifting a massive 39,719 units last week, up 35 percent, and GBA clearing 13,693 units - a weekly increase of 26 percent.
The fight for second place is well and truly on and Xbox is winning. We'll keep you updated on all developments.
If this doesn't start an argument, I don't know what will ;)
Geeforcer
06-Nov-2002, 00:41
We covered this ten times now. UK likes the Xbox, did not like the price. Price went down, sales went up.
Question is, how is the rest of Europe? Is the rise in UK sales representative of european sales in general or, like some here have claimed in the past, is the UK buying behaviour more similar to the US and the rest of Europe is developing differently?
Would be nice to get some numbers from other EU countries too, not that I expect that to happen... ;)
Well GCN is a pretty good deal ahead in Europe overall though. I dont think Ms should start breaking out the 'bubbly' just because the XB pulls ahead by some 3000 units in the UK. It's appearant that the bundle and price drop are helping. One question though, when is the SMS bundle coming out in Europe?
What Quincy said. ;)
Really, why bother post this?
Xbox is in the lead by a miniscule amount.. which could (and likely will) shift back and forth over the coming months.
How do we know the GC is far ahead of the xbox in europe? What were the last sales figures for europe?
Steve Dave Part Deux
06-Nov-2002, 04:43
Furthermore, it's no secret in development circles that bringing a title exclusively onto GameCube is a less profitable exercise that it is for PS2 and Xbox.
If it's a piece of crap.
Magnum PI
06-Nov-2002, 06:58
the xbox was launched in march, the GC in may.
the lead of the xbox is of 3000 units.
PR artists can really make something out of nothing, i admire them !
The article was mostly about how Xbox weekly sales are rising substantially faster than the GCN, not just for this week, but over the past couple of months.
If it's a piece of crap.
Well crap games don't typically sell on any system. However there's other games that are NOT crap that still don't sell well on gamecube. Sport games for instance are a perfect example.
As has been said XBox was pretty much always doing well in the U.K, but doing terribly in the rest of Europe. Also the U.K is nowhere near as big a market as the rest of Europe combined. Just to illestrate that, GameCube sold 90,000 in the U.K within a few months and 500,000 in the entire of Europe, so the U.K is only about 20% of the European market, yet XBox sold around 60% of its European consoles in the U.K AFAIR.
If sales stayed with the same ratio (20% of total Eurpean GC sales in the U.K and 60% of total European XBox sales in the U.K) then GameCube would currently have around 1.2 million units sold in Europe and XBox around 400,000. Of course we have no way of knowing right now so its just speculation to make my point, that point is good U.K sales do not neccesarily mean good European sales for XBox.
Johnny Awesome
06-Nov-2002, 13:42
Well, the European console market is about 60% of the US console market, since the split is (50/30/20) between US/EU/Japan.
Since the PS2 is selling about 600,000 units per month in the US, it should be selling about 360,000 units per month in Europe. It's selling 40,000 units per week = 160,000 units per month in the UK. This places the UK at roughly 44% of the EU market. It's probably more like 40%. I imagine that Germany and France each have around 20%, with the other 20% split amongst Scandanavia, Italy, Spain, Protugal, and the rest.
Well, the European console market is about 60% of the US console market, since the split is (50/30/20) between US/EU/Japan.
Since the PS2 is selling about 600,000 units per month in the US, it should be selling about 360,000 units per month in Europe. It's selling 40,000 units per week = 160,000 units per month in the UK. This places the UK at roughly 44% of the EU market. It's probably more like 40%. I imagine that Germany and France each have around 20%, with the other 20% split amongst Scandanavia, Italy, Spain, Protugal, and the rest.
the exact pourcentages on the gamasutra web site in a pdf file about sales.
Actually, from what our Euro rep has told me, germany is the largest region for game sales.
Either way, the only reason it wasn't selling well at the start was because the price was too high. Well, as you all know the price is no longer the issue and i have no doubt that sales have increased in all regions.
Johnny Awesome
06-Nov-2002, 15:18
Germany isn't the largest, the UK is. See, sometimes I actually disagree with QRoach. :)
New information: The September numbers are in - Xbox is outselling GCN in UK, France, Germany (combined) by 7% right now. IGN Wire has the article, for reference.
marconelly!
06-Nov-2002, 15:19
IGN Wire has the article, for reference.
Yeah, that 'report' from MS is pure comedy gold :lol:
I don't doubt the 7% european number, though.
Erm johnny, I'm going to have to trust my Euro sales rep on that one. He just mentioned it in a conference call yesterday afternoon. According to him, the game market in Germany is MUCH larger than the UK. Unless he meant it was the largest out side of the UK...
Either way, if Xbox is doing better in all thsoe regions, then it's a good thing.
Johnny Awesome
The U.K is most deffinately not 40% of the European market, it might very well be the biggest single market in Europe, but I can't see it being anymore then 30% of the whole market. Its probably more like 30% for U.K, 25% for Germany, 15% for France, leaving 20% for the other countries.
On a seperate note if you look at PS2 sales, as you just were (11 million for U.S and 8 million for Europe, plus Europe got PS2 a month later), the European market is more like 75% of the U.S market.
New information: The September numbers are in - Xbox is outselling GCN in UK, France, Germany (combined) by 7% right now. IGN Wire has the article, for reference.
When I see actual sales numbers, not ones from MS, I'll believe that (as I did with the U.K sales numbers). But until then I'll dismiss it is yet more MS propaganda. Like when they said they'd sold 500,000 XBox consoles in Europe ages ago, even though it was obviously untrue at the time.
Teasy,
On a seperate note if you look at PS2 sales, as you just were (11 million for U.S and 8 million for Europe, plus Europe got PS2 a month later), the European market is more like 75% of the U.S market.
That's JUST the PS2. Not the entire gaming market of course. If you want the entire gaming market then you need to add up the sales of ALL consoles in both regions. We talked about this before.
When I see actual sales numbers, not ones from MS, I'll believe that (as I did with the U.K sales numbers). But until then I'll dismiss it is yet more MS propaganda. Like when they said they'd sold 500,000 XBox consoles in Europe ages ago, even though it was obviously untrue at the time.
ha, I knew you'd say this. keep in mind that thi means you also ca not trust Nitnendo's numbers as well. this is exactly the same thing I was saying months ago when you and a few others ran bout using nintendo's number as fact.
Also, I remember that 500,000 number being "shipped", not sold.
That's JUST the PS2. Not the entire gaming market of course. If you want the entire gaming market then you need to add up the sales of ALL consoles in both regions. We talked about this before.
I didn't actually mean that, but I can see how it could have looked as if I was saying that I believed the European market is 75% of the U.S market, after looking back at what I wrote. I'll explain what I actually meant:
Johhny was using PS2 sales to measure the size of different markets, and at the same time said that the European market was 60% of the U.S market. Well I have no real problem with him using PS2 to measure a market, but if he wants to use PS2 numbers then he should at least be consistent. In which case he should have looked at PS2 sales and saw that according to those sales Europe is more like 75% of the U.S market. So I did not mean to say either way how big it may be, I don't know that, I was saying that if he uses PS2 numbers, which he was, Europe is more like 75% rather then 60%.
As for how big it actually is, I can't be sure because we don't have any real sales data for all consoles in all regions, so I won't bother discussing it.
Oh and yes, we did talk about this sort of thing, more accurately Europe+Japan vs U.S, and I haven't actually finished yet. I totally forgot about that thread until you just mentioned it so I'll have a look at it and post a response when I have time to deal with a lenghy post like that :)
ha, I knew you'd say this. keep in mind that thi means you also ca not trust Nitnendo's numbers as well. this is exactly the same thing I was saying months ago when you and a few others ran bout using nintendo's number as fact.
Your logic is flawed, I do not trust MS's numbers at all because they very recently lied about European numbers.. that much was obvious when they changed "sold" to "shipped" after they were called on the numbers. Where as no such thing has occured with Nintendo AFAIR, maybe a long time in the past, I can't remember, I'm sure someone will drag something similar up from 5 years ago or something :), but certainly not in this generation.
Also, I remember that 500,000 number being "shipped", not sold.
Yeah after someone called MS on the sold numbers MS changed the numbers to shipped.
Hey, read what I said. Johhny was using PS2 sales to measure the size of different markets,
ok, i didn't relize he did the same thing. my mistake.
Oh and yes, we did talk about it, and I haven't actually finished yet. I totally forgot about that thread until you just mentioned it so I'll have a look at it and post a response when I have time to deal with a lenghy post like that
I don't know if there's any point to, but do what you like.
Quote:
ha, I knew you'd say this. keep in mind that thi means you also ca not trust Nitnendo's numbers as well. this is exactly the same thing I was saying months ago when you and a few others ran bout using nintendo's number as fact.
Your logic is flawed, I do not trust MS's numbers at all because they very recently lied about European numbers.. that much was obvious when they changed "sold" to "shipped" after they were called on the numbers.
Um, what? I don't remember seeing MS get caught on this. As far as I can remember, they ALWAYS said shipped an many people took that as sold. to consumer.
Where as no such thing has occured with Nintendo AFAIR, maybe a long time in the past, I can't remember, I'm sure someone will drag something similar up from 5 years ago or something , but certainly not in this generation.
Oh please, take the blinders off. Nintendo almost ALWAYS inflates the numbers they quote. I guess you don't remrmber at E3 when nintendo said they sold 2.2 million Gamecubes when Ms said they sold 1.7 or 1.8 in north america? Who was't telling the truth there?
Yeah after someone called MS on the sold numbers MS changed the numbers to shipped.
I'm not sure what universe that happened in.
I don't know if there's any point to, but do what you like.
I agree, there is no point really, although perhaps not for the reason your thinking, but I will post anyway.
Um, what? I don't remember seeing MS get caught on this. As far as I can remember, they ALWAYS said shipped an many people took that as sold. to consumer.
I remember at the time discussing this and you swearing blind that they had sold that many in Europe and that my comments that they hadn't sold 500,000 were unfounded. Now you say that you always thought it was 500,000 shipped not sold.
Anyway I remember a while later someone, maybe Nintendo, accusing MS of lying, and then MS changing the numbers to shipped, there were a few discussions about this. I'll have to look back at some threads to see if I'm remembering rightly... because obviously I could be completely wrong, but I doubt it.
Oh please, take the blinders off. Nintendo almost ALWAYS inflates the numbers they quote.
As of yet Nintendo haven't gave a number so insanely inflated that there accused of lying and then changed the numbers from sold to shipped to cover it up. So wether they inflate numbers or not doesn't put them in the same PR (lying) league as MS.
I guess you don't remrmber at E3 when nintendo said they sold 2.2 million Gamecubes when Ms said they sold 1.7 or 1.8 in north america?
I don't know.. who? Seriously what were the U.S sales at that time?
I'm not sure what universe that happened in.
Maybe it didn't happen in your universe, but AFAIR it did happen in the universe with Earth in it :)
Of course almost this whole post is based on memory, therefore I reserve the right to change my mind completely if I read past threads and realise I totally mis-remembered certain facts :)
I agree, there is no point really, although perhaps not for the reason your thinking, but I will post anyway.
Which reason would that be? That you have to get in the last word ;)
I remember at the time discussing this and you swearing blind that they had sold that many in Europe and that my comments that they hadn't sold 500,000 were unfounded. Now you say that you always thought it was 500,000 shipped not sold.
Actually whren this argument came out i clearly remember people coming in here and saying that it was "shipped" not sold. there was also lot's of argument over semantics. sold to retail or sold to the consumer, blah blah blah...
Anyway I remember a while later someone, maybe Nintendo, accusing MS of lying, and then MS changing the numbers to shipped, there were a few discussions about this. I'll have to look back at some threads to see if I'm remembering rightly... because obviously I could be completely wrong, but I doubt it.
No idea where you're getting this from, but I don't remember Nintendo EVER commenting on Xbox sales numbers.
As of yet Nintendo haven't gave a number so insanely inflated that there accused of lying and then changed the numbers from sold to shipped to cover it up. So wether they inflate numbers or not doesn't put them in the same PR (lying) league as MS.
They said they sold 2.2 million gamecubes at E3! That was clearly not the truth and I can remember arguing about that. Sure they were accused of lying, by everyone that saw the nintendo numbers and saw the actual sales numbers from independant sources. do you need to defend them to the very end?
I don't know.. who? Seriously what were the U.S sales at that time?
1.7 -1.8 million Xbox units and gamecube was around 1.5 -1.6 million units sold at the time. At that same conference MS stated their number for US sales, and we ALL know that nintendo hasn't caught up in the US.
Maybe it didn't happen in your universe, but AFAIR it did happen in the universe with Earth in it
Sorry, you must have been sleeping, since you dreamed that up ;)
Of course almost this whole post is based on memory, therefore I reserve the right to change my mind completely if I read past threads and realise I totally mis-remembered certain facts
If you aren't so certain, then why are you bothering to argue about it? IS this your MO?
Magnum PI
06-Nov-2002, 21:15
another thread degenerating into a qroach<=>teasy flamewar...
Johnny Awesome
06-Nov-2002, 22:59
The PS2 has sold roughly 16 million in the US and 10 million in Europe. My 60% is just about right for Europe.
Qroach: The German PC market is the largest and it's possible that the sum of the PC + Console market is larger in Germany, but the UK market is the largest European console market.
I don't really want to get involved, but I actually do remember several people from here saying (very adamantly) that the numbers MS had stated were sold through to consumers and not shipped (although I can't remember if Qroach was one, not that I really care). I also remember the actual statement from MS being very misleading, as well as someone from Nintendo criticizing MS on the subject and then MS changing the wording.
I am fairly certain of all of this, and unless the topics have been deleted we can always go back and check on it.
Anywho, it is moot, all the manufacturers try to shed the best light they can on their sales, whether that means quoting the most optimistic approximation of sales or quoting shipped numbers (while wording it in a tricky manner).
Johnny if what you are saying is so how much would you esimate the rest of europe in terms of units sold? I keep hearing that the xbox is doing terribly in the rest of europe but i have yet to see actual figures.
Is it possible that some one could shed some light on this?
As for the console market, Uk=France+Germany in terms of sales in 2001
Which reason would that be? That you have to get in the last word
I don't wish to be picky about your zinging :) but that doesn't make much sense. You said it was pointless for me to post again in that thread. I agreed, but said the reason why it was pointless was not the reason you'd be thinking off, and now you ask if the reason I think it may be pointless to post is that I want the last word.. hmm, doesn't make sense that. My reason for it being pointless was actually that I know you won't listen no matter what I say.
They said they sold 2.2 million gamecubes at E3! That was clearly not the truth and I can remember arguing about that. Sure they were accused of lying, by everyone that saw the nintendo numbers and saw the actual sales numbers from independant sources. do you need to defend them to the very end?
1.7 -1.8 million Xbox units and gamecube was around 1.5 -1.6 million units sold at the time. At that same conference MS stated their number for US sales, and we ALL know that nintendo hasn't caught up in the US.
So 1.6 million according to NPD, add another 35% to that number to get total sales, ask Johhny or Ben about that if you want to argue with the reasoning :) and you have around.. yes you guessed it, 2.2 million :)
If you aren't so certain, then why are you bothering to argue about it?
I'm queit certain about it, but I'll have to check to make sure what I'm remember happened exactly how I remember it, I know for certain its pretty close.
Johhny
The PS2 has sold roughly 16 million in the US and 10 million in Europe
Where do you get those numbers from?
guys,
I think you're correct about the PC market in Germany. When our rep said that heas talking about a PC product we're releasing there eventually (FA3.5)
Teasy,
My reason for it being pointless was actually that I know you won't listen no matter what I say.
Ok, I considered that, I was just checking to see if you were thinking something I wasn't ;) . I have no problem listening to someone when they give a reasonable believeable reply. At least an answer that doesn't contradict data I've seen.
So 1.6 million according to NPD, add another 35% to that number to get total sales, ask Johhny or Ben about that if you want to argue with the reasoning and you have around.. yes you guessed it, 2.2 million
How said that number was according to NDP at the time? I'm just saying that MS said that number at E3. Either way, Gamecube has NEVER surpassed the total number of xbox untis "sold" in america. This was the point I was making. nintendo claimed shipped numbers as SOLD. You do know that it's not possible for game cube to be at 2.2 million units sold when it's never been ahead of Xbox, correct? I don't even know why you are arguing that.
BenSkywalker
07-Nov-2002, 13:07
Quincy-
This was the point I was making. nintendo claimed shipped numbers as SOLD. You do know that it's not possible for game cube to be at 2.2 million units sold when it's never been ahead of Xbox, correct? I don't even know why you are arguing that.
IIRC I pointed out the problem with this back when we were still on the FuseTalk boards(right when the Q4 '01 numbers were coming in). MS was using NPD numbers at the time allowing them to adjust up twice(to actual units sold and then units shipped) to cover any dips in sales or simply show an enormous spike at any given point.
Nintendo's numbers were likely correct when they stated them @E3(I don't recall off the top of my head) while MS was understating their numbers considerably(that I do remember).
How said that number was according to NDP at the time? I'm just saying that MS said that number at E3. Either way, Gamecube has NEVER surpassed the total number of xbox untis "sold" in america. This was the point I was making. nintendo claimed shipped numbers as SOLD. You do know that it's not possible for game cube to be at 2.2 million units sold when it's never been ahead of Xbox, correct? I don't even know why you are arguing that.
Hold on a moment, you never mentioned anything about Nintendo claiming to sell more then MS in the U.S at that time. You just said Nintendo claimed 2.2 million while sales from a independent company said 1.8 million for XBox and 1.6 million for GameCube. So what I was saying is if that was NPD numbers, or to be honest probably any numbers from a independent company, they will not be 100% accurate since they don't look at anwhere near all stores. So both GameCube and XBox could have been allot higher then 1.6 million and 1.8 million, maybe even with GameCube closer to 2.1-2.2 million. Where that would leave XBox I did not say, I would assume 2.4-2.5 million at that time.
BTW, I quickly checked back at a couple of threads and found a couple of interesting quotes:
MS said at this press conference that xbox has sold 500,000 consoles in Europe and Halo had a 88% attach rate. I guess it's not getting killed there since the price reduciton (I'm sure a few peopl aroun here will dispute thos numbers)
Hmm, is that or is that not you saying that MS said they sold, not shipped, 500,000 consoles in Europe?
In the same thread you argued with me when I claimed those sold numbers could not be true, you were adamant that they were true.
This is a Quote from GamingWorldx.com posted here:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1503&postdays=0&postorder=asc&high light=xbox%20europe&start=40
Microsoft lies about Euro sales at E3
During E3 Microsoft made the bold claim that they had sold 500,000 Xbox consoles to the European market since its' March launch. The claim was originally pitched as the "sell-through" number of consoles sold, however, after a comment from Nintendo of Europe boss David Gosen, Microsoft have changed the sales number from "sell through" to "in the channel" (shipped).
David Gosen said that the figures recorded by MCV (official industry magazine) were "around half their number". So does Microsoft plan on winning this war by trying to falsify sales numbers? I certainly hope not.
Just as I remembered it, MS said they had sold 500,000, which is backed up by your own comment above, until David Gosen questioned that. Then MS changed its story to shipped 500,000 consoles.
Never the less, So XB outsells GCN in the UK (or Europe) for the first time since both consoles European launch. Whooa, it's about time. On the other side of the token XB has outsold GCN every month since April..when the GCN outsells XB (my prediction) in Oct, Nov and Dec here in the US I wont break out the 'bubbly' if I was NOA either. I'd say the same thing..it's about time.
Johnny Awesome
07-Nov-2002, 17:09
Well, the early numbers look bad for GCN in North America for October, but we might as well wait another couple weeks to debate them. :)
Console (US/EU/JP) Sales:
PS2: 16/10/11 = 37 million
GCN: 3.5/800k/2.7 = 7 million
Xbox: 4.6/600k/300k = 5.5 million
That's a reasonable estimate, I think.
The October US numbers are probably going to be:
PS2 - 1 million, Xbox - 500k, GCN - 375k.
Remember to multiply NPD * 1.5 to get the right figure.
US Nov + Dec should be around 3, 1.5, 1.5 respectively.
I don't think the GCN will ever catch up to Xbox again in US or UK.
MS has really gone after Nintendo - lowered price, bundled Sega software, Rare buyout. It's almost like they realized they weren't going to catch Sony this generation and switched gears into anti-Nintendo mode to make sure they finish second.
If i look at the current bundles: (from an Austrian retailer)
Gamecube + SMS 269€
PS2 + F1 2002 299€
XBOX +JSRF + SegaGT2002 259€
its not surprising that xbox sells better than gamecube (cheaper and more games)
Teasy,
Hold on a moment, you never mentioned anything about Nintendo claiming to sell more then MS in the U.S at that time. You just said Nintendo claimed 2.2 million while sales from a independent company said 1.8 million for XBox and 1.6 million for GameCube.
let me put it this way, Nintendo lied about the GC sales numbers at E3. I'm willing to drop this discussion since you're also claiming that MS lied at E3. I can at least admit that publishers have always inflated sales numbers, including MS. Can you at least admit that Nintendo does the same thing so we don't have the same discusson regarding this over and over?
The link you posted above has the same discussion with you arguing with everyone else about nintendo NOT inflating their numbers. All I have to do regarding that is remind everyone that the sales numbers Nintendo gave a week after launch in japan were significantly higher than the sales numbers from independant sources. Yet again inflating numbers.
Just as I remembered it, MS said they had sold 500,000, which is backed up by your own comment above, until David Gosen questioned that. Then MS changed its story to shipped 500,000 consoles.
I'm not arguing that MS is incapable of inflating numbers. That's the reason why I will trust numbers from SONY/Nintendo/MS ONLY until I see independant numbers. what I am arguing is WHERE did MS change this form sold to shipped? from what I remrmber, MS or Ed Fries said during the press conference that they "sold" 500,000 in europe, and that was the ONLY place I can remrmber hearing that. Now tell me how can they "go back" and change a video clip with that said? i certainly don't recall a press release.
Also, why don't you post a link to the thread you quoted me from?
I wonder how many people are hesitating between the Cube and Xbox. The lineup looks so much different IMO.
Fact is MS is quite aggresive in europe currently. It is impressive what things you can do/offer when you do not care about earning money.
Well, the early numbers look bad for GCN in North America for October, but we might as well wait another couple weeks to debate them.
What early numbers?
Console (US/EU/JP) Sales:
PS2: 16/10/11 = 37 million
GCN: 3.5/800k/2.7 = 7 million
Xbox: 4.6/600k/300k = 5.5 million
XBox is 4.2 million in the U.S not 4.6 and I'd be astounded if XBox was only 25% behind GameCube in Europe. My guestimate:
PS2: 16/10/11 = 37 million (not sure about PS2, so I won't argue).
GCN: 3.5/1.1/2.7 = 7.3 million
XBox: 4.2/600k/300k = 5.1 million
The October US numbers are probably going to be:
PS2 - 1 million, Xbox - 500k, GCN - 375k.
Wow.. what are the next English lottery numbers going to be? :)
I don't think the GCN will ever catch up to Xbox again in US or UK
Are you kidding?, GameCube could catch XBox in a single month in the U.K given that XBox is a measly 3,000 ahead. I mean comment, that's not even ahead, its 247,000 vs 250,000 AFAIR, that's neck and neck, 3000 is barely even a percentage point. Infact GameCube could catch XBox in a few days during the lead up to Christmas given how the sales fly up at that time of the year.
I'm willing to drop this discussion since you're also claiming that MS lied at E3.
I'm not suprised that your now willing to drop this discussion.
I can at least admit that publishers have always inflated sales numbers, including MS. Can you at least admit that Nintendo does the same thing so we don't have the same discusson regarding this over and over?
Yes I can admit its possible Nintendo have inflated numbers in the past, they very likely have at some times. But they have not been caught inflating numbers anywhere near to the degree MS have and I still trust them far more then MS. Also when have I just trusted Nintendo numbers and given them as fact without good reason too? I believed there 400,000 sold numbers because I could barely find a GameCube in the U.K after launch, I didn't believe MS's numbers for the exactly the opposite reason.
All I have to do regarding that is remind everyone that the sales numbers Nintendo gave a week after launch in japan were significantly higher than the sales numbers from independant sources.
Did those independent sources take sales from 100% of Japan?
what I am arguing is WHERE did MS change this form sold to shipped? from what I remrmber, MS or Ed Fries said during the press conference that they "sold" 500,000 in europe, and that was the ONLY place I can remrmber hearing that.
Just a little while ago in this thread you claimed MS didn't say sold at all. You said that they said shipped from the start. Now after I posted those quotes you say they never said shipped at all and infact said sold instead.. which is it?
Also, why don't you post a link to the thread you quoted me from?
I didn't post a link because it was a quote from you, so I didn't think you'd need proof that you said it. Do you really want me to post the link?
These threads are always depressing on so many levels.
Why are any of us bothering to make assumptions on what the rest of EU has purchased when we don't have any sales figures to show for our attempts?
I'm not suprised that your now willing to drop this discussion.
Why, because as usual you do the same thing over and over again? we've had this argument before, and I'm nto goign to go through the same BS.
Quote:
I can at least admit that publishers have always inflated sales numbers, including MS. Can you at least admit that Nintendo does the same thing so we don't have the same discusson regarding this over and over?
But they have not been caught inflating numbers anywhere near to the degree MS have and I still trust them far more then MS. Also when have I just trusted Nintendo numbers and given them as fact without good reason too?
Teasy, your "nintendo can do no wrong" attitude is completely pathetic. Nintendo flat out lied at E3 and said they sold 2.2 million gamecubes in north america. That's a flat out lie. They inflated launch sales numbers in japan as well. It's not better or no worse then anything MS has done. keep in mind that you argued you had no reason to bleieve the other lower sales numbers for gamecube at launch in a thread months back.
I believed there 400,000 sold numbers because I could barely find a GameCube in the U.K after launch, I didn't believe MS's numbers for the exactly the opposite reason.
Just like you believed the sales numbers Nintendo oringinally quoted for Japan at launch. Even though a number of sources claimed it was bogus! omigod, you mean someone actually caught nintendo in the act? wow!
Did those independent sources take sales from 100% of Japan?
Did MCV take 100% of sales in europe?
Just a little while ago in this thread you claimed MS didn't say sold at all. You said that they said shipped from the start. Now after I posted those quotes you say they never said shipped at all and infact said sold instead.. which is it?
As I said above teasy WHERE did MS go back and change this? I can admit that I was wrong and someone (ed fries I think) said they sold 500,000 in europe at E3. Even the bloody link you posted says that MS said that during E3. But I want to know where they went back later and changed this. Did it happen in a press release? Since I don't remember seeing that. What I'm saying is that they didn't change anything after E3. I honestly think Ed Fries slipped up and said the wrong thing.
I didn't post a link because it was a quote from you, so I didn't think you'd need proof that you said it. Do you really want me to post the link?
Go ahead and post the link please.
Why, because as usual you do the same thing over and over again? we've had this argument before, and I'm nto goign to go through the same BS.
No, the reason I'm not suprised your suddenly willing to drop this discussion is because of the quotes I posted earlier.
Teasy, your "nintendo can do no wrong" attitude is completely pathetic.
What is truly pathetic is that you cut out a part of my comment when you quoted it to make it look like I'd said something I hadn't.
I said:
"Yes I can admit its possible Nintendo have inflated numbers in the past, they very likely have at some times. But they have not been caught inflating numbers anywhere near to the degree MS have and I still trust them far more then MS."[/b]
You cut out that part I highlighted to make it look like I would not admit Nintendo could inflate numbers.. that is pathetic.
Nintendo flat out lied at E3 and said they sold 2.2 million gamecubes in north america. That's a flat out lie.
Is it? I'm not so sure. Why haven't you argued with Ben's post?
As I said earlier how do I know that your not looking at Nintendo's real numbers vs independent XBox numbers and saying "well XBox has sold more, we know that, and these numbers show the opposite so Nintendo must be lying with these numbers"? Independent numbers are never 100%. Independent numbers could say 1.6 million and real numbers could be closer to 2.2 million.
They inflated launch sales numbers in japan as well. It's not better or no worse then anything MS has done. keep in mind that you argued you had no reason to bleieve the other lower sales numbers for gamecube at launch in a thread months back.
When was this, exactly what numbers are you talking about here?
Just like you believed the sales numbers Nintendo oringinally quoted for Japan at launch. Even though a number of sources claimed it was bogus! omigod, you mean someone actually caught nintendo in the act? wow!
Where did I mention believing any GameCube japanese launch numbers? Also what sources claimed those numbers were wrong BTW?
Did MCV take 100% of sales in europe?
MCV?.. sorry you've lost me now, refresh my memory on which MCV numbers your talking about.
As I said above teasy WHERE did MS go back and change this?
I remember allot of people talking about this and seeing a couple of short articles on the matter. I'll have to look for those articles I suppose.
Go ahead and post the link please.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1019&postdays=0&postorder=asc&star t=0[/url]
No, the reason I'm not suprised your suddenly willing to drop this discussion is because of the quotes I posted earlier.
If you'd only ADMIT that nintendo has done this recently. Nitnendo has recently inflated numbers. During it's US launch, it's japanese launch and during E3. yet you continue to ignore. that. If you'd only admit that ONLY then am I willing to drop the discussion.
What is truly pathetic is that you cut out a part of my comment when you quoted it to make it look like I'd said something I hadn't.
teasy, i cut out the part that I'm fine with. I saw that you said it's possible. however you walked right around the FACT Nintendo has inflated numbers recently. you simply ignore that and claim it never happend. That's what is "pathetic"! Can you at least admit that nintendo has also recently done this, or are you rabidly defending them again?
You cut out that part I highlighted to make it look like I would not admit Nintendo could inflate numbers.. that is pathetic.
As I wrote above, I focused on the part of your sentance where you make it look like nintendo hasn't done this as recently as anyone else. Which simply isn't true. Also i focused on the part of your response where you try to make it seem like what Nintendo has done s isn't nearly as bad. Simply put, you added conditiopns to your response in some pathetic attempt to make it look like nintendo hasn't done this recently this generation. Even though it's right in front of you to plainly see! I really don't think there's a person here that can't see that.
Is it? I'm not so sure. Why haven't you argued with Ben's post?
Teasy, it was a Lie! Nitnendo had shipped that manay console, but had NOT sold that many consles by May. At least MS reported realistic numbers for North America.
As I said earlier how do I know that your not looking at Nintendo's real numbers vs independent XBox numbers and saying "well XBox has sold more, we know that, and these numbers show the opposite so Nintendo must be lying with these numbers"? Independent numbers are never 100%. Independent numbers could say 1.6 million and real numbers could be closer to 2.2 million.
Put 2 and 2 together Teasy. WHY would MS use lower numbers IF they didn't have too? As I said above, it was BS. both consoles had not reached 2 million in sales in May. That was EVEN before the price drops! remmber that, when the actual console sales picked up.
When was this, exactly what numbers are you talking about here?
It was right after the japanese launch! nintendo claimed how much they sold, and indpendant sources claimed MUCH lower numbers. You argued that you had no reason to believe anything but the Nintendo numbers.
Where did I mention believing any GameCube japanese launch numbers? Also what sources claimed those numbers were wrong BTW?
SIGH! You claimed this months back. Ok, what month did Nitnendo launch in Japan again, and I'll go back and find you post.
MCV?.. sorry you've lost me now, refresh my memory on which MCV numbers your talking about.
Um, hellow, was it NOT MCV that disputed the nimbers MS claimed they sold in Europe at E3? You just posted that earlier in this thread.
I remember allot of people talking about this and seeing a couple of short articles on the matter. I'll have to look for those articles I suppose.
Yes, short articles and no evidence of them actually "changing anything". That's just my point.
BenSkywalker
08-Nov-2002, 12:38
Put 2 and 2 together Teasy. WHY would MS use lower numbers IF they didn't have too? As I said above, it was BS. both consoles had not reached 2 million in sales in May. That was EVEN before the price drops! remmber that, when the actual console sales picked up.
They were quoting NPD data Quincy, not real numbers. We had this discussion at the time, it isn't revisionist. Both consoles were almost certainly at 2Million sold by May, recall that the Cube had ~1.3Million last holiday season with the XB at ~1.5Million. You think MS only sold ~100K units between January 1 and late May in the US? Looking at E3 data Sony was 3-4Million million units ahead of what NPD reported in shipped terms(no chance in hell there were 3-4Million in the pipe, not even close).
Hi Ben, what you just said didn't completely make sense.
Xbox was around 1.5 million after Christmas I agree on that point. However, to get to 1.8 million in May, they would have needed to sell 300,000 unts in a little over 4 months during the slowest part of the year (From a sales standpoint). There's certainly no way they (Nintendo or MS) could have sold 500,000 - 700,000 units to reach 2.2 million as Nintendo menitoned. If the consles were selling that well, they wouldn't have bothered with the price cuts so soon.
nonamer
08-Nov-2002, 19:43
Actually I wouldn't trust either's number. 8)
BenSkywalker
09-Nov-2002, 00:43
Quincy-
There's certainly no way they (Nintendo or MS) could have sold 500,000 - 700,000 units to reach 2.2 million as Nintendo menitoned. If the consles were selling that well, they wouldn't have bothered with the price cuts so soon.
http://members.fortunecity.com/turrican/1.gif
If that doesn't show up properly Marconelly! posted the chart in the this thread-
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2351
That is based on NPD numbers and we know their coverage is in the ~60% range. Nintendo was averaging around 125K per month with E3 occuring in late May it would work out to somewhere in the 500K-700K range from January to when they made the announcement. For MS they were averaging closer to 180K per month. Even if we took NPD numbers as absolute from January to E3 MS still would have been right around 2Million.
That is based on NPD numbers and we know their coverage is in the ~60% range.
I'd really like to know where you are getting that NDP are only in the 60% range. Granted they can't cover the only market, but I really don't see where you are getting this from. As far as i can tell you're making that number up to support a previous argument you had. IIMo I think they cover closer to 80% of the market, along with a few other independant sources. Walmart sell lot's of products, but I don't think they make up 40% of Nintendo and Xbox console sales.
Nintendo was averaging around 125K per month with E3 occuring in late May it would work out to somewhere in the 500K-700K range from January to when they made the announcement.
E3 was around May 21st if I remember right.
Even is what you say is true (and it's not), Nintendo STILL wouldn't be at 2.2 million units. As you mentioned earlier after Christmas nintendo had sold 1.3 million units. Even if you included 5 full months at 125,000 units they would still be considerably shy of 2.2 million claimed at E3, it would put them at 1.8 million roughly.
Johnny Awesome
09-Nov-2002, 16:51
Well, we've been over this a billion times, but NPD tracks only about 60-70% of sales. It's consistent with Sony, MS, and Nintendo numbers after you filter out their bullshit.
For instance, PGR was listed at selling 1 million copies about the same time that NPD numbers * 1.5 + UK sales of PGR would have equaled one million copies. Same goes for Halo at 2 million, or GTA3 at 6 million in the US or whatever it is now, I forget.
The theory tracks pretty well. Take NPD * 1.5 to get the real US numbers.
BenSkywalker
10-Nov-2002, 01:48
Quincy-
IIMo I think they cover closer to 80% of the market, along with a few other independant sources. Walmart sell lot's of products, but I don't think they make up 40% of Nintendo and Xbox console sales.
WM isn't the only chain that NPD doesn't track, and it isn't just the Box and Cube.
Worldwide PlayStation 2 Shipments by Region, as of May 5, 2002
North America (Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc.) 11.3 million units
http://vip-us.playstation.com/news/PressReleases/415014851.asp
The September NPD numbers have the PS2 at 11.29Million units sold while Sony shipped 11.3 by the beginning of May. Do you really think that Sony has only sold 14.113Million units total in the US by the beginning of October after having shipped 11.3 by the beginning of May? Johnny already metioned other stats to back this up.
As far as i can tell you're making that number up to support a previous argument you had.
I've explained ways of checking this out for anyone to use, those that have noticed that the ~60% figure is about right(compare NPD's annual numbers to those of any of the publishers or hardware comapnies as an example).
Even is what you say is true (and it's not), Nintendo STILL wouldn't be at 2.2 million units. As you mentioned earlier after Christmas nintendo had sold 1.3 million units. Even if you included 5 full months at 125,000 units they would still be considerably shy of 2.2 million claimed at E3, it would put them at 1.8 million roughly.
Actually, my stating 125K for N was likely a bit low, even then at five full months they would have been at 1.925Million(you can look at the charts and see that MS wasn't 50% ahead of Nintendo with the exception of January). I'm not saying Nintendo's numbers were absolutely correct(and I haven't, although they could have been) just that they were likely quite close while MS was understating their numbers considerably(which is easily shown even if NPD was correct- they were @1.5Million at the beginning of the year and sold well over 400K by NPD between January and April, excluding May completely).
BTW- if your stance on Nintendo having a considerably younger demographic is truly what you believe, then WM should have a larger impact on Nintendo's sales then the other two. I don't follow that line of thought myself, but if you honestly believe it you should keep it in mind when discussing sales between MS and Nintendo. Also, the XBox had a 800K lead last time we went over the numbers and adjusted them while they only had a 500K lead without adjustment. What I say applies for all companies and has nothing to do with any particular discussion(I've been telling everyone NPD has covered the same rate since before the Cube or Box launched- it has nothing to do with supporting any particular argument).
http://sg.biz.yahoo.com/021108/72/34j2z.html
Total U.S. sales* of video-game consoles, in millions of units:
Sony PlayStation 2 11.2
Microsoft Xbox 2.2
Nintendo GameCube 2.7
*From introduction through September 2002
Source: DFC Intelligence Special Offer: $10 off
Erm....those numbers are way off........................
I think you got the Xbox and GC mixed up?
I think you got the Xbox and GC mixed up?
I did not mixed anything, but maybe the Yahoo article is wrong ??
Well, thats what I meant. If the GC was actually 500k ahead of the Xbox in the US, I'm sure Nintendo would have made sure everyone heard about it.
BenSkywalker
11-Nov-2002, 13:17
Source: DFC Intelligence Special Offer
I checked these guys out, they use NPD data. Either the people at Yahoo reposted the wrong numbers backwards, or DFC posted the wrong numbers backwards.
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