View Full Version : Which console has the best development environment?
Which console has the best development environment? Would any cross-platform developers care to compare and contrast? Does Visual Studio give Xbox the edge? Does Metrowerks rule? Is gnu gnood? Or are they all pretty much the same? Enquiring minds want to know! :D
I forget who, but someone here once said that Visual Studio and NVIDIA sample code is hard to beat ;)
zurich
This is one area where I can't really see any debate.
The Xbox dev environment is considerably better IMO. It isn't perfect "compile and continue" didn't work last time I checked, but it's damn good.
I forget who, but someone here once said that ... NVIDIA sample code is hard to beat ;)
must have been one from the Wreckless Dev team ;)
SCNR
DemoCoder
08-Oct-2002, 21:05
Basically, which ever platform has Visual Studio is the easiest. :)
marconelly!
08-Oct-2002, 21:11
I think it's a common knowledge that XBox devkit is the most user friendly.
I'd like to know what is the GC and PS2 dev kit like these days? What process do you go through to program for these machines? What OS/Compiler is used, etc, etc...
I've heard that the GCN may be the easiest to develop for. It's either that or the Xbox.. prolly the Xbox. PS2? Comfortable development environments? I don't know if you can mention those things in the same sentence even if you wanted to! :)
Fafalada
09-Oct-2002, 03:37
I'd have to second ERP there. It's not just the ease of the platform use, it's also the fact that XBox offers by far the best compiler solution at the time.
Basically, which ever platform has Visual Studio is the easiest.
In that case they'd all rate the same ;) SNSystems ProDG offers MSDev integration for some time now. I think Metrowerks offers something similar as well, though I haven't used it, so I am not sure how well it works.
Actually to be fair we've used MSDev throughout development of our game, linked to external stuff. After switching to SNSystems tools, the integration was just more complete (no more external makefiles, native win32 compiler instead of calling networked linux one, debugger IDE etc).
What process do you go through to program for these machines? What OS/Compiler is used
As I mentioned above, at this point both platforms offer development tools that allow you to basically stay under Win32&MSDev all the way. So all you need is the software, a devkit, and a win32 workstation with a network card.
Compilers I know for PS2 are GCC (Linux/Win32(ProDG)), CodeWarior, and VectorC. I don't know much about the last, except that it looks interesting for offering C++ -> VU compiler.
GCC also has CW and ProDG, not sure if there are others, maybe ERP knows more there.
Tagrineth
09-Oct-2002, 16:39
Sounds like the actual Xbox development environment is the friendliest, while actual coding is easiest on GCN... with PS2 being miserable in both aspects :P
archie4oz
10-Oct-2002, 19:57
Sounds like the actual Xbox development environment is the friendliest, while actual coding is easiest on GCN... with PS2 being miserable in both aspects
Well that depends on your backround... I know guys who are in hog heaven with gcc, gdb, a good reference manual (HTML or hardbound) and vi (or emacs). Then there are those who get brave and toy around with Python, Ruby, or Lisp in their games... To them Visual Studio is analogus as VB is to C/C++... :wink:
Of course if you're coming from a Windows PC, then you really can't beat Xbox since you've great compilers, and dev environment. Of course there *are* differences in going from PC to console that *some* developers don't grasp right away... :-?
Anyhow, I was more a NeXT guy, so I found the rather 'austere' environment of the PS2 more to my liking since I simply tore the SDK down and rebuilt it to work with Project Builder from OS X. That also allowed me to bogard some functionality from Interface Builder, OmniGraffle (for my visual scripter), my VU shader builder, some pretty nifty Maya integration tools. Never did get any audio tool integration though. :(
If I were to work on another platform it'd probably be the AGB though... It's rather natsukashii... :P
Nite_Hawk
11-Oct-2002, 06:28
Yeah, I've really found that things depend on your background a lot. An example is that I've got two professors who are great lowlevel unix programmers. One loves GDB, the other doesn't.
Similarly, some people hate having to program the lowlevel hardware and would perfer to work in a clean and abstracted environment. Others like getting down and dirty and do things even the people who built the system never intended.
Personally I probably fall somewhere inbetween. I hate coding in java, but I'm all that fond of asm either. A nice healthy does of C is still my favorite. ;)
Nite_Hawk
randycat99
11-Oct-2002, 06:38
Anybody have "the word" on how well VectorC is being accepted in developer circles? Is it making significant inroads into PS2 programming similar to the way that Cg and Rendermonkey are promising inroads into the higher functionalities of the latest videocards?
Anybody seen the latest NFS on PS2? How was this game even possible on there doing what it does given that people thought the hardware was pretty much tapped-out doing much less in other games prior to NFS? Was this just developers who really knew what they were doing, better tools, VectorC involved at all, or just expertly done artwork?
Fafalada
11-Oct-2002, 12:35
Anybody have "the word" on how well VectorC is being accepted in developer circles? Is it making significant inroads into PS2 programming similar to the way that Cg and Rendermonkey are promising inroads into the higher functionalities of the latest videocards?
I don't know how it is being accepted, but I can give my personal feelings from evaluating it a bit.
Basically, the normal C/C++ compiler clearly still has ways to go, and won't be replacing other compilers anytime soon IMO.
I could see it used to optimize a chosen few files, that's about it. The whole auto-vectorization thing in straight C code doesn't seem all that usefull to begin with - there's dozens of compiler "hints" you need to learn about before you can start seeing decent optimizer results there, and default performance tends to be lower then competing 'normal' compilers too.
VU micro code compiler on the other hand, seems to be pretty great stuff, that one I could see getting widespread use. It pretty much enables you to write your shaders in C/C++, something most people would find hard to beat I think.
David_South#1
10-Aug-2004, 02:52
Would anyone care to share how Criterion's Renderware fits into the development world?
As I understand it they allow cross platform coding.
http://eg04.inrialpes.fr/Download/Proceedings/Tutorial-4.pdf
Just curious to see if opinions have changed about developement,
or at least how development knowledge and views have improved.
Very little has been said of GameCube development.
But it seems interesting to me as the games look very good.
Even if the games aren't always the most most popular.
Nite_Hawk
10-Aug-2004, 03:50
Sheesh,
Talk about bringing a topic back from the dead! It's been nearly two years since this thread died! :) I was thinking to myself, "self, what have you posted in the console forum recently hmmm?" when I got the email notification. Wow!
As for Renderware, I really don't know. Sorry... :/
Nite_Hawk
Renderware is a middleware solution.
Think of it as a collection of API's, to do the usual game stuff.
It doesn't in and of itself change the development environment, but it does provide a layer of abstraction from the hardware.
IMO if you aiming at a AAA quality title middleware engines like this don't really save much on the overall code development effort, they do let you get up and running and generating assets a lot sooner. Which can be a huge win.
FatherJohn
10-Aug-2004, 04:53
Renderware (now owned by EA) is huge -- I have heard that something like 30% of all cross-platform console game titles are written using Renderware.
The biggest game franchise of the last three years (GTA3 and its follow-ons) was written using RenderWare. GTA3 shows that you can have a hit game with poor graphics, as long as the gameplay resonates with players.
From what I've seen at GDC, Renderware's development environment is quite good. I think you're still stuck using the console vendor's compilers and debuggers for any C++ code you write, but if you are just using the base Renderware engine with your own art and scripts, you can live in a whizzy interactive see-your-changes-in-real-time-on-all-three-consoles-and-a-PC world.
It will be interesting to see what EA does with Renderware. They could use it to become the Microsoft of the games business.
Or alternatively they could bury it, since it's possible they bought Criterion solely for the Burnout franchise.
Or they could use it mostly for in-house cross-platform ports.
Or perhaps they could spin it off to some other company.
In any event, if I were a non-EA Renderware customer I would be worried about the future of Renderware.
JacksBleedingEyes
10-Aug-2004, 05:09
Well wether or not the XBox has the most user friendly environement is a bit irrelevant if the quality of their games is often sub-par to the o so uncomfortable to develop on PS2.
I heard the gameboy is the easiest . It has what 10+ years of dev time on it. Gotta be an open book now
Guden Oden
10-Aug-2004, 09:36
Faf,
You spoke about VectorC in your 2002 post and said it was lacking then. What's it like now, assuming it is still being developed/maintained?
london-boy
10-Aug-2004, 09:43
I think Virtual Boy development environment is way underrated.
I'm currently working on the XBOX and (most of the time..) on the PS2 and there is no doubt XBOX development enviroment it's far better than PS2 enviroment.
As Faf pointed out SnSystem enviroment for the PS2 is based/integrated with Visual Studio..too bad we lack a lot of useful tools the XBOX Dev Kit comes with..
ciao,
Marco
I think Virtual Boy development environment is way underrated.
I love my virtual boy. I love red and black. I love that huge tumor on the side of my head from not taking breaks when the machine told me to
london-boy
10-Aug-2004, 09:48
I think Virtual Boy development environment is way underrated.
I love my virtual boy. I love red and black. I love that huge tumor on the side of my head from not taking breaks when the machine told me to
How about the back cramps, i mean THAT's what i call gameplay immersion, u get hurt when ur character gets hurt... Acutally, u get hurt period, but hey... details...
OH we made a strap. So now u wear it like goggles. Helps alot. We lay in bed and play so your head doesn't hurt
PC-Engine
10-Aug-2004, 10:00
Whenever I played the VB, I laid on my back so that I didn't have to strain myself. Gravity really helped the VB stay put like a pair of goggles. :)
It was virtually theraputic. It would be really neat if GB Evolution used lightweight LCD glasses as an output device. A hybrid GB/VB would be sweet.
Whenever I played the VB, I laid on my back so that I didn't have to strain myself. Gravity really helped the VB stay put like a pair of goggles. :)
It was virtually theraputic. It would be really neat if GB Evolution used lightweight LCD glasses as an output device. A hybrid GB/VB would be sweet.
yea vb would have been nice but they did it at the wrong time. I think with todays lcd tech they could have done something much better .
london-boy
10-Aug-2004, 10:07
Whenever I played the VB, I laid on my back so that I didn't have to strain myself. Gravity really helped the VB stay put like a pair of goggles. :)
It was virtually theraputic. It would be really neat if GB Evolution used lightweight LCD glasses as an output device. A hybrid GB/VB would be sweet.
yea vb would have been nice but they did it at the wrong time. I think with todays lcd tech they could have done something much better .
Don't give them strange ideas, or they'll re-re-redesign the DS!!!
I'm serious. The vb is really cool . The only draw backs are how big it is , only red , and that u could only play 15 misn at a time haha
london-boy
10-Aug-2004, 10:09
I'm serious. The vb is really cool . The only draw backs are how big it is , only red , and that u could only play 15 misn at a time haha
Serious? never knew that!
I'm serious. The vb is really cool . The only draw backs are how big it is , only red , and that u could only play 15 misn at a time haha
Serious? never knew that! bah . Going to bed. I don't need this grief.
london-boy
10-Aug-2004, 10:17
I'm serious. The vb is really cool . The only draw backs are how big it is , only red , and that u could only play 15 misn at a time haha
Serious? never knew that! bah . Going to bed. I don't need this grief.
I'm serious! Can't have 15 mins battery life! Never knew that...
PC-Engine
10-Aug-2004, 10:52
The 15 mins had nothing to do with battery life. I don't even remember if it used batteries at all. Regardless it was related to comfort. Heck I couldn't play the Game Gear for more than 15 mins because the screen was so friggin blurry! The VB was a brilliant idea for the time, unfortunately the technology wasn't mature. Personally I could play the VB for over an hour without eye fatigue. The red monochrome graphics really gets boring..fast.
london-boy
10-Aug-2004, 10:57
The 15 mins had nothing to do with battery life. It had to do with comfort. Heck I couldn't play the Game Gear for more than 15 mins because the screen was so friggin blurry! The VB was a brilliant idea for the time, unfortunately the technology wasn't mature.
Oh i see...
Anyway, back to topic! Which is................. oh, development environment!
PC-Engine
10-Aug-2004, 11:13
Don't give them strange ideas, or they'll re-re-redesign the DS!!!
Here's my vision of the future GBEvolution. A controller the size of an eye-glass hardcase that also function as a holder for the detachable LCD glasses. The LCD glasses will have a small gauge retractable wire that attaches to the controller. A wireless connection is possible, however, the bandwidth required for the graphics such would be too great and/or consume too much power.
Here's my vision of the future GBEvolution. A controller the size of an eye-glass hardcase that also function as a holder for the detachable LCD glasses. The LCD glasses will have a small gauge retractable wire that attaches to the controller. A wireless connection is possible, however, the bandwidth required for the graphics such would be too great and/or consume too much power.
And in this future, will we have advertisements in our dreams?... Ok, sorry. :lol: Futurama rocks
And to remain on topic, personally the VB gives me headache in 40Min, especially the games with scrolling (Vertical force, Wario Land).
I still can't understand how Nintendo could had released such an uncomfortable gaming device.
...Err, the VB wasn't the subject of the topic?
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