View Full Version : Interesting article on Gamasutra.
Shader Integration: Merging Shading Technologies on the Nintendo Gamecube
(http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20021002/sauer_01.htm)
Cheers
Gubbi
Yes, a good article, with many tantalizing hints as to the hardware capabilities and limitations of the GameCube.
I wonder if all those shader diagrams were pulled from some internal Factor Five reference manual? Perhaps they are going to make a product out of their shader language, and sell it to other GameCube developers.
cybamerc
04-Oct-2002, 22:05
I wonder if they will license their next engine. They seem fairly open to sharing their work with other developers and I'm sure there would be great interest in such an offering.
PC-Engine
04-Oct-2002, 23:27
The guys at Factor 5 are brilliant. First they created realtime DPLII used on GC and now licensed to even PS2 developers. Then there's the DivX compression for full length DVD quality video on those little GC discs all in assembly code. If anyone knows the GC hardware, it's those guys at Factor 5.
Crazyace
05-Oct-2002, 12:05
Factor 5's Musyx code for the GC is pretty cool, but I think you are stretching things to say that they invented DPLII - most PS2 programmers talk to Dolby about implementing that, or use the Sony library code.....
Plasmatics
05-Oct-2002, 12:25
"Yes, a good article, with many tantalizing hints as to the hardware capabilities and limitations of the GameCube."
Due to the fact that I am both lazy and not tech-minded, would you, or anyone else be willing to elaborate on this comment?
cybamerc
05-Oct-2002, 12:58
Crazyace:
Factor 5's Musyx code for the GC is pretty cool, but I think you are stretching things to say that they invented DPLII - most PS2 programmers talk to Dolby about implementing that, or use the Sony library code.....
They did write the codec and tools for Cube, though... long before Dolby made the technology available to PS2 developers as well.
Someone said that the sample code was how to do slef shadowing and bump mapping. I also heard that ATI is releasing 'shader' tools for upgrade the GCN kits soon.
PC-Engine
05-Oct-2002, 21:45
Crazyace:
Factor 5's Musyx code for the GC is pretty cool, but I think you are stretching things to say that they invented DPLII - most PS2 programmers talk to Dolby about implementing that, or use the Sony library code.....
They did write the codec and tools for Cube, though... long before Dolby made the technology available to PS2 developers as well.
That's correct. The realtime DPLII encoder was created at Factor 5. Dolby then became the licensing administrator for F5's realtime DPLII encoder for games. Even the regular nonrealtime DPLII codec wasn't invented at Dolby. It was invented by Jim Fosgate.
It has become common for Dolby to be the licensing administrator for various audio technologies many of which weren't invented at Dolby. AAC for example is now licenced out by Dolby. Another example is Dolby Headphone.
Crazyace
05-Oct-2002, 23:11
PLII doesn't really warrent a codec, just crossfading tween 2 samples seems enough - ( though an all pass filter implementation would save a sample ) DD or DTS on the other hand involve a lot more calculations.
Even the PS1 or N64 can produce DPLII audio - so I guess it will appear in a lot more games....
DivX is interesting, ( I wonder if any Xbox games will use DivX as the code is already available )
The most interesting thing in the factor 5 presentation was the use of a dither texture to improve the quality of the screen display, I thought that was a pretty cute idea
PC-Engine
05-Oct-2002, 23:23
PLII doesn't really warrent a codec, just crossfading tween 2 samples seems enough - ( though an all pass filter implementation would save a sample ) DD or DTS on the other hand involve a lot more calculations.
Even the PS1 or N64 can produce DPLII audio - so I guess it will appear in a lot more games....
DivX is interesting, ( I wonder if any Xbox games will use DivX as the code is already available )
The most interesting thing in the factor 5 presentation was the use of a dither texture to improve the quality of the screen display, I thought that was a pretty cute idea
Realtime DPLII using movie mode gives you 5.1 channel surround very similar to DD and DTS even though it's not discrete. If *realtime* 5.1 channel surround is as easy as you say then we would've seen it on PS1 or N64 a long time ago. As a matter of fact why haven't we seen realtime 5.1 surround on PS2 until recently? :P How come none of the great PS2 developers figured out a way to do it since it's so trivial? How come YOU didn't go to SONY with your brilliant ideas? :lol:
You can talk the talk but can you walk the walk. Factor 5 seems to be running 8)
Can't wait for their next game which will be using extensive DivX video.
Even the PS1 or N64 can produce DPLII audio - so I guess it will appear in a lot more games....
Just like how PS2 can do DICE :P
Steve Dave Part Deux
05-Oct-2002, 23:47
I think Crazyace was only talking about standard DPL2, and not the enhanced implementation created by F5.
DeathKnight
05-Oct-2002, 23:52
Discrete *realtime* 5.1 channel surround isn't easy which is why, until recently, it wasn't possible. Powerhouse processors were needed such as the MCPX and the unused power inside of the EE (for DTS, though I don't know the bitrate quality of it on the PS2). DPLII is just a "hack" 5.1 surround. Kind of like how Dolby Headphone Surround sounds pretty good with my Sony studio monitor headphones, but it'll never be as good as a discrete surround solution nor does it require anywhere near as much processing power.
Crazyace
05-Oct-2002, 23:54
I'd guess the reason DPLII didnt appear in PS1 or N64 games ages ago is that it is a new decoder format, that isn't even widely spread in the consumer market ( cant think of many DPLII equipped surround TVs, although that should change )
There were tech demos of 3d matrixed sound on PS1 years ago ( using a Sony Music 3d sound system ) but games go for the mass market ( sometimes not even standard DPL )
How many GC games are DPLII encoded? Probally as many PS2 games with DTS realtime encoding...
If I were cruel I would suggest that DPLII was important to the Gamecube, as it was a good bullet point for the audio ( there were enough bulletin board postings about how it would be as good as DD/DTS when it was first mentioned ) - I'm sure that there are probally dozens of DPLII equipped games out for the PS2 now, just none of them feel that it's a major publicity point...
Sound is always annoying, as most game developers on any platform ( not just PS2 ) leave it until the last moment, I'd guess that all of the great PS2 developers are playing around with Vector Units and MSKPATH3 texture transfers.. :lol:
I'd like to think that the most impressive thing about the next Factor 5 game isn't the DivX video - giving how technically good they are it would be a pity to see some kind of Myst or Dragon's Lair FMV offering.. :wink:
PC-Engine
05-Oct-2002, 23:57
DPLII supports movie mode and music mode. Realtime 5.1 works in movie mode. Anything else including, N64, PSX, NES, will be using either *passive* music mode or nonrealtime movie mode like during cutscenes. Those mentioned consoles didn't even support realtime DPLI back then.
BTW, I think it goes without saying that Factor 5's next game will be brilliant. Adding extensive DivX video will just be a sweet bonus :wink:
IIRC DTS realtime on PS2 isn't real discrete DTS like DICE is to DD :wink:
PC-Engine
06-Oct-2002, 00:20
Discrete *realtime* 5.1 channel surround isn't easy which is why, until recently, it wasn't possible. Powerhouse processors were needed such as the MCPX and the unused power inside of the EE (for DTS, though I don't know the bitrate quality of it on the PS2). DPLII is just a "hack" 5.1 surround. Kind of like how Dolby Headphone Surround sounds pretty good with my Sony studio monitor headphones, but it'll never be as good as a discrete surround solution nor does it require anywhere near as much processing power.
Comparing DPLII 5.1 to D Headphone is flawed as I don't think there are headphones with 5 separate drivers as in 5 separate speakers :wink:
Also nobody is saying realtime DPLII is better than DICE but it gets close. Listen to ED and Halo and you'll understand. Arguing over paper specs isn't going prove anything :wink:
I think most Xbox games use Bink and/or WMV for their FMV.
Divx is great for distributing video (typically commercial DVDs copied without permission) over the Internet, but it's not a particularly good codec for video games. It's not terrible, just nothing special.
(A good video game codec is high quality, low cpu overhead and low ram footprint. High compression ratio isn't as important, because DVDs are huge.)
Steve Dave Part Deux
06-Oct-2002, 02:00
You just described DivX to a tee.
DeathKnight
06-Oct-2002, 02:11
Comparing DPLII 5.1 to D Headphone is flawed as I don't think there are headphones with 5 separate drivers as in 5 separate speakers :wink:
Also nobody is saying realtime DPLII is better than DICE but it gets close. Listen to ED and Halo and you'll understand. Arguing over paper specs isn't going prove anything :wink:
Well, I wasn't really comparing the two. I was just using them as examples of surround sound "hacks".
How close DPLII is to discrete surround or how good it sounds in comparison is highly subjective. Just depends on the person listening.
PC-Engine
06-Oct-2002, 02:45
Comparing DPLII 5.1 to D Headphone is flawed as I don't think there are headphones with 5 separate drivers as in 5 separate speakers :wink:
Also nobody is saying realtime DPLII is better than DICE but it gets close. Listen to ED and Halo and you'll understand. Arguing over paper specs isn't going prove anything :wink:
Well, I wasn't really comparing the two. I was just using them as examples of surround sound "hacks".
How close DPLII is to discrete surround or how good it sounds in comparison is highly subjective. Just depends on the person listening.
When it gets to the point where one has to listen to one channel at a time to hear the discreteness between DD and DPLII, it's close...period. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know the general definition of close or grasping at straws to make an argument out of something that nobody was arguing about. :wink:
Whether it's a hack or not is moot especially when the end result is nearly the same. Would you like to elaborate on which motion blur techniques are hacks? :P
PC-Engine
06-Oct-2002, 02:57
I think most Xbox games use Bink and/or WMV for their FMV.
Divx is great for distributing video (typically commercial DVDs copied without permission) over the Internet, but it's not a particularly good codec for video games. It's not terrible, just nothing special.
(A good video game codec is high quality, low cpu overhead and low ram footprint. High compression ratio isn't as important, because DVDs are huge.)
DivX doesn't make sense for Xbox or PS2 because like you mentioned they both use full size DVD media which can use something like MPEG2. However for GC's limited MiniDVD format it makes perfect sense.
Also cpu overhead is only relevent for video codecs because PCs can have multiple programs and windows open. On consoles FMV is fullscreen so the cpu overhead argument doesn't hold water :wink:
On GC DVD quality at 1/7 the file size makes perfect sense.
BenSkywalker
06-Oct-2002, 05:30
DivX doesn't make sense for Xbox
Depends. If developers use wmv in its place then I agree, however they can't use MPEG2 for games(requires a license which the XB doesn't have without the remote) and if we are talking MPEG1 v MPEG4 I'll certainly take the latter without hesitation.
...cpu overhead is only relevent for video codecs because PCs can have multiple programs and windows open. On consoles FMV is fullscreen so the cpu overhead argument doesn't hold water :wink:
That depends on what you're using the FMV for. If you're trying to run your game at the same time, for example if you've got the FMV texture-mapped on a computer monitor within a game level, then it can make a big difference how much CPU the codec is using.
..OK, I can imagine a scenario where a frugal cross-platform developer would happily use DivX to have the same media play back the same FMV cut scenes on all three platforms, without having to spend much money on codecs. (Assuming the DivX IP owners don't start asserting their IP rights.)
(And what cross-platform developer isn't frugal? :-) )
DeathKnight
06-Oct-2002, 06:39
Here's a nice article (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20020626/hargreaves_02.htm) from a dev who worked on MotoGP who talks about the capabilities of the systems to a degree.
Decoder wise DivX probably have no IP worth speaking of except their trademark, it's plain MPEG-4 advanced profile.
You would pay DivX for the source code (as Factor 5 presumably did, implemented the whole decoder in assembly my ass ;) or libraries and use of their trademark (there is also a couple of others offering MPEG-4 advanced profile decoders, so you might not go with DivX). Also you'd pay the patent holders to the MPEG-4 Visual Patent Portfolio License "US $0.01 per 30 minutes or part to a maximum of US $0.04 per movie" for each copy of the game.
MPEG-1/2 decoders would probably work out cheaper, Bink or homegrown cheaper still.
PC-Engine
06-Oct-2002, 07:07
...cpu overhead is only relevent for video codecs because PCs can have multiple programs and windows open. On consoles FMV is fullscreen so the cpu overhead argument doesn't hold water :wink:
That depends on what you're using the FMV for. If you're trying to run your game at the same time, for example if you've got the FMV texture-mapped on a computer monitor within a game level, then it can make a big difference how much CPU the codec is using.
In those situations you wouldn't need DivX, MPEG 1 would be adequate since it's a tiny little low res video :wink:
Mfa, regarding the assembly code, I got that from an IGN interview :)
Plasmatics
06-Oct-2002, 07:21
I guess not then.
PC-Engine
06-Oct-2002, 07:40
DVD-like quality at file sizes 7-10 times smaller than MPEG-2
Support for the advanced features of the cutting-edge DivX 5.02 Pro video technology including pyschovisual modeling, bi-directional encoding, and global motion compensation
Encoding speeds 2-3X faster than real-time
Hand-optimized assembler-code for maximum usage of all Gamecube CPU ("Gekko") extensions and minimal cache misses
Uses both CPU and graphics chip ("Flipper") in parallel for extremely fast performance
Maximum flexibility and ease of use, with the ability to map video on any surface and run in parallel with other applications
Tight integration with the MusyX and AX sound libraries for audio streaming
IGNcube: Why did you partner with DivX in the end?
Julian: DivX is the perfect partner in the MPEG-4 field. DivX is the widest known and best implementation of an MPEG-4 encoder currently in existence. Their encoding toolkit is mature and second to none. Also, they have the experience in licensing this technology and simply great brand recognition. On top of that our two technical teams "clicked" just perfectly and it took only a few days to create a special GameCube SDK version of the DivX encoder.
Ya ok, but I just read that to mean it contains assembly code. Doing the whole decoder in assembly would be silly.
Last I heard, the-royal-"we" hated FMV in games, and called it the bane of the PSX-generation! Why the sudden change of heart? ;)
PC-Engine
06-Oct-2002, 08:29
Last I heard, the-royal-"we" hated FMV in games, and called it the bane of the PSX-generation! Why the sudden change of heart? ;)
Because Factor 5 already knows how to make great games without FMV. Now they'll make those same great games with FMV.
It's totally opposite of great FMV in PSX games and no substance ingame. Without a strong foundation, FMV is just skin deep :wink:
Sorry, this gets a great big :roll:
For quite a while, people have been jumping for joy that the current systems can do impressive ingame cinematics, which removes the need for FMV. This same FMV was damned for detracting from gameplay, "removing the player", and all around disrupting a games atmosphere (ie: change in graphic quality).
I don't really have an opinion on the use of FMV at all. I guess I could say that I like it, but I prefer in-game rendered graphics.
I just find it really funny that FMV is "back", simply because Hail-Mary-Factor 5 made a DIVX codec to "fix" one of the GCs technical shortcomings (its media). And judging from the comments of some forum members and reviews, it doesnt sound like Rogue Leader excels in the gameplay department (ie: I think FMV is the last thing it needs).
Unless people are super excited about the prospect of HQ introduction and ending movies, then I'd really have to smell some hypocricy in the air.
zurich
PC-Engine
06-Oct-2002, 09:04
I just find it really funny that FMV is "back", simply because Hail-Mary-Factor 5 made a DIVX codec to "fix" one of the GCs technical shortcomings (its media). And judging from the comments of some forum members and reviews, it doesnt sound like Rogue Leader excels in the gameplay department (ie: I think FMV is the last thing it needs).
First of all who said Factor 5's next game is a RL sequel?
Second considering the number of copies RL sold, I'd say it's a pretty good shooter :wink:
It's funny how so many casual gamers were fooled into thinking what they saw as FMV running on PSX was actual ingame footage. The disappointment on their faces after realizing it was all smoke and mirrors was just priceless :lol:
Steve Dave Part Deux
06-Oct-2002, 09:22
That article doesn't have jack squat in it.
Johnny Awesome
06-Oct-2002, 13:51
Well, Rogue Leader isn't a great shooter, but it's a great Star Wars game. Take out the license and the game would have sold a lot fewer copies. They did some impressive graphics though and I still enjoy the game.
Well, Rogue Leader isn't a great shooter, but it's a great Star Wars game. Take out the license and the game would have sold a lot fewer copies. They did some impressive graphics though and I still enjoy the game.
I hesitate to buy it. Last shooter I played and enjoyed was Starfox64.
Steve Dave Part Deux
06-Oct-2002, 19:10
I was refering the postmortem with the Moto GP guy.
Wazoo-
RL isn't as fun as Starfox 64 IMO, but I'm sure you'd still enjoy it.
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