View Full Version : ZOE2 tgs trailer
Tiberius
22-Sep-2002, 01:10
http://jpn01.konami.co.jp/movie/zoe2/zoe2_tgse.asf (30 mo)
this game is awesome
very good looking gfx
fine mech design
the gameplay seem to be great
and the music is beautiful
iscariot
22-Sep-2002, 01:23
this game looks(and sounds) insanely good. Not to mention the new Silent Hill 3 videos released yesterday. They made realtime visuals resemble FMV, and on the PS 2 of all consoles. Konami is on a roll :D
http://www.newtechnix.com/Webmasters/mickurt/Images/SilentHill3_ps2_12.jpg
http://www.newtechnix.com/Webmasters/mickurt/Images/SilentHill3_ps2_18.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/sh3_0921_10.jpg
http://www.ruliweb.com/data/news3/09m/21/ps2/sh314.jpg
Do you have a link for the new SH3 trailer? All I've found are cruddy digicam quicktimes @ IGN.
zurich
Ozymandis
22-Sep-2002, 04:12
Of course, the Ps2's actual output won't be that crisp.
I agree, both games look terrific though. Konami has gotten more from the Ps2 than even Square has :o
Logan Leonhart
22-Sep-2002, 05:14
Wow! It looks amazing!! :o
Konami has definitely become the top-coders of the generation, even I didn´t expect such a high level of detail and graphical intensity on the PS2.
This is hard to say, but Konami has surpassed Squaresoft as the best programmers in the industry.
DeathKnight
22-Sep-2002, 05:18
It's just a high-resolution video. Definately not representative of what you'll be seeing on your PS2.
iscariot
22-Sep-2002, 05:20
actually it is representative of what you'll be seeing on your PS 2. Go read the tgs impressions if need be...
DeathKnight
22-Sep-2002, 05:26
The only impressions that I've seen splooging over the graphics have been from IGN PS2. Gamespot claimed they looked "great" and nothing more.
marconelly!
22-Sep-2002, 07:01
Some people who got to play ZOE2 said it was the most impressive demo on the show, edging out even Panzer Orta.
Gamespot almost never 'splooges' over anything (depends on an editor, though). That's what IGN is for :)
Link to much higher quality SH3 trailer (still hand-cam, though)
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/media/0,11100,561292,00.html
You subscribe to GS Complete? :p
zurich
marconelly!
22-Sep-2002, 08:40
Better than any magazine subscription, that for sure.
$20 a year. Kinda like one lunch in a normal restaurant :)
Hehe good point, but imo opinion until GameSpot and IGN _really_ lock down and take away everything, it's still not worth it.
ie: I can get by on Gspot's reviews and IGN's 5 pics/videos per day.
I had IGN Insider for 1 month, and then realized that Gaming Life in Japan != $5.95 USD / month ;)
zurich
bleh all those SH3 shots are hi res captures downsampled and FSAA. If gamers had bitched about DOA3 shots awhile back, why arent they bitching about this... :oops:
LogisticX
22-Sep-2002, 16:54
bleh all those SH3 shots are hi res captures downsampled and FSAA. If gamers had bitched about DOA3 shots awhile back, why arent they bitching about this...
Because people realize that DOA3 actually looks that good when using progressive scan on an HDTV. If SH3 outputs w/ progressive scan, then the game may actually look that amazing.
As for the ZOE2 trailer.....unbelievable in every respect. It makes watching Anime tolerable for me.
marconelly!
22-Sep-2002, 17:03
DOA3, Sly cooper and some other games whith supersampled screenshots looked *almost* as good on my non-progressive flat TV (small screen though, so pixels are not as visible as on the big screens)
I think they looked closer to those supersampled screens than they would to standard jagged framebuffer screens, as TV screen does a bit of free AA on it's own.
archie4oz
22-Sep-2002, 17:09
Looks like your typical display list playback sequence (albeit with really nice art direction), probably running progressively. The POV shot of the dude with the hat reminds me of the old man head demo SCEI put together a few years ago...
surpassed Squaresoft as the best programmers in the industry.
That's not much of a reach... :wink:
Well, i can recall that gamers arent so forgiving with the old DOA3 shots...
Lets be honest here, there is no way SH3 will look exactly like this on your small-big-progressive whatever TV. This shot has virtually FFTSW level of image quality.
http://www.newtechnix.com/Webmasters/mickurt/Images/SilentHill3_ps2_12.jpg
And dont forget, once the game moves, you will have the usual PS2 image breakups
LogisticX
22-Sep-2002, 17:22
Actually most PS2 games look BETTER in motion. And also, while it may SEEM like its FF movie quality, there is a lot of technical things that could be thrown away with in that picture. The game is going to only be rendered at TV resolution, and also a lot of processor saving techniques are in use most likely (background blurring, and most likely a method that only renders polygons visible onscreen). These are just assumptions of course.
Jeebus, ZOE2 looks insane. Blazing fast action with out of proportion explosions. Best use of cel shading i've ever seen, especially for the smoke effects.
I had my fears that ZOE2 wouldnt fix the mistakes in the first one, but after reading the interview with Kojima at IGNps2, they seem to have fixed everything i was worried about, along with throwing a shitload more action and speed into the game.
I'll say it................ZOE2 > PDO in graphics, i just cant believe how talented konami became with ps2, they are truely #1 for the hardware right now. I keep checking the 4:09 part in the trailer and it gives me chills, how did they do that?
ZOE2 = the best demonstration that an anime based on mech with "ultra speed ala DBZ is possible in a game. Bravo konami, bravo.
marconelly!
22-Sep-2002, 18:06
Lets be honest here, there is no way SH3 will look exactly like this on your small-big-progressive whatever TV.
People played it at TGS. It's that good, minus the horizontal AA. No image breakups or whatever.
alexsok
22-Sep-2002, 18:08
SH3 is looking damn incredible!
Can't wait! :D
archie4oz
22-Sep-2002, 19:07
This shot has virtually FFTSW level of image quality.
Not even close... If you're going to go the extra effort to render an offline cutscene, you might as well make it look like it... It all looks like real-time rendering to me (very nice real-time at least), it's just benefitting from good art direction (noise filtering, low-key scenes with strong directional lighting, cast shadowing/self-shadowing)...
Heh, i meant the image quality. :P
Look at how smooth the image looks? Waaaaaaay too smooth for a PS2 game, which meant it obviously underwent some touch up.
Anyway, is it just me or is SH3 doing some cool new volumetric pixel lighting and realtime soft shadowing? I thought PS2 TNT level GS cant support such heavy rendering?
Did someone said ZOE2 > PDO graphics? WRONG. Go look up PDO trailer again and try saying that.
ZOE2 has that plain drab greenish MGS2 look while PDO is pure texture goodness. BUT both games have hardcore craaaaazy action. :oops:
marconelly!
22-Sep-2002, 19:52
Look at how smooth the image looks? Waaaaaaay too smooth for a PS2 game, which meant it obviously underwent some touch up.
Or for any other console game for that matter. The shots have been antialiased, but that is all. The game IS that impressive looking on the screen, if it's to believe everyone who got to play the demo.
Did someone said ZOE2 > PDO graphics? WRONG. Go look up PDO trailer again and try saying that.
Again, people have been *playing* both games and said that. Obviously, it's a matter of preferrence, but for example Justin Keeling (XboxNation and IGN japanese correspondent) said ZOE2 demo was more impressive and better looking, and I remember him salivating over PDO several months ago when he first played it :)
iscariot
22-Sep-2002, 20:00
ZOE2 was absolutely insane. It drew some of the biggest crowds at TGS, and looks light years ahead of the last game. Heck, it looked light years ahead of pretty much everything at the show, and I would put it ahead of Panzer Dragoon Orta visually. Infact, I've been playing PDO at home over the last couple of days and I would be prepared to argue that case with anyone.
Justin's words. It's all subjective of course, they're both great looking for different reasons...
LogisticX
22-Sep-2002, 20:11
Why must it be a competition anyways? Both games are undeniably beautiful.
i have downloaded the TGS PDO trailer, and found it to be very impressive, with noticeable improvement over the E3/X02 NY one
downloading ZOE2 trailer now, can't wait to see if its really better than the new PDO
-aneep-
PC-Engine
22-Sep-2002, 21:32
That pic of the guy with the hat looks good, but the fact that the Shenmue head demos on the DC comes pretty close to that pic, I'm not really that impressed. It's more art direction than anything technical really :wink:
PC-Engine
22-Sep-2002, 22:01
:roll:
If you don't have any technical facts to prove otherwise than I can understand why you're speechless :P
As a partime artist I can take the Shenmue head demos on DC, change the bright DC color palette to a more drab PS2 palette, add a little better lighting, zoom the camera out and have the same end result :wink:
marconelly!
22-Sep-2002, 22:07
Why must it be a competition anyways? Both games are undeniably beautiful.
Absolutely agree.
but the fact that the Shenmue head demos on the DC comes pretty close to that pic
Pretty close? That demo rendered *only* the head. No body, no background, no anything. Not only is this how the ingame models look like but the lighting / shadowing is way ahead of what that head demo displayed. Facial animation is also much better, everything has self shadowing, etc etc...
I was also reading how particularly impressive effect in SH3 is the way dynamic lighting illuminates animated mist. Can't wait to see that :)
PC-Engine
22-Sep-2002, 22:14
You obviously don't have Shenmue for DC. I had it running on my 20" monitor with a VGA Box. There is a background and there is a torso. The whole point is that the DC is less than half as powerful as the PS2 yet when dedicating most of it's resources to rendering a cutscene, it comes really close to what that pic displays. Not only that, but Shenmue is over 2 years old on a 4 year old console :lol: DC can do self shadowing too using it's modifier volumes.
Like I said more art direction unless someone like a developer can prove otherwise. BTW I'd really like to see what AM2 can pull off in a new head/torso cutscene TODAY on DC 8)
marconelly!
22-Sep-2002, 22:22
There is a background and there is a torso.
Extremely primitive background and very simple torso (I have the game btw) It's a tech demo - nothing more. It displays one head with some basic facial animation. That's not even close to what's going on in SH3 where you can see several full bodies with background that is way more complex, with faces that are more complex and with lighting so much better that it's not even worth comparing. If you don't want to accept it that's your problem :P
Oh, and I don't care if DC *could* do self shadowing, that Shenmue demo didn't have it, and if they could do it and make it look good, I'm sure they would.
Ozymandis
22-Sep-2002, 22:26
I'll say it................ZOE2 > PDO in graphics...
I agreed with you until that line :(
Download the new trailer when it's released. ZOE2 is more frantic action-wise, but Orta just looks better. Better texturing, higher poly counts, etc.
Download the new trailer when it's released. ZOE2 is more frantic action-wise, but Orta just looks better. Better texturing, higher poly counts, etc.
Maybe on texturing, but then again, mechs dont need much texturing and the backgrounds in ZOE2 are more akin to an anime. Higher polys? hmm, I disagree, just look how many targets there is in the 7:17. Or the ice cap going into pieces at 2:39. Look at how many particles effects there are. Look at the cel shading on the explosions (cel shading on combiners is more stress no matter how you look at it). The subtle motion blur, the distorsions, and whatever the fuck is called that thing during the 4:09 fight
Dont forget that PDO is also a rail shooter, its can be considered as a long cut-scene.
PC-Engine
22-Sep-2002, 22:38
There is a background and there is a torso.
Extremely primitive background and very simple torso (I have the game btw) It's a tech demo - nothing more. It displays one head with some basic facial animation. That's not even close to what's going on in SH3 where you can see several full bodies with background that is way more complex, with faces that are more complex and with lighting so much better that it's not even worth comparing. If you don't want to accept it that's your problem :P
Oh, and I don't care if DC *could* do self shadowing, that Shenmue demo didn't have it, and if they could do it and make it look good, I'm sure they would.
First of all that pic only has one person and a blurred background similar to the Shenmue demo so..
Second a tech demo is actually more interactive than a cutscene ie the camera can be moved dynamically and in the case of Shenmue both the camera AND the light source can be moved dynamically and independently by the user. :wink:
Like I said the DC is less than half as powerful as PS2 yet the old Shenmue demo can do most of what this brand new cutscene is doing. Not impressed and that's coming from someone with formal art training.
I'd like to see what AM2 could pull off on DC TODAY! 8)
LogisticX
22-Sep-2002, 22:43
PC Engine, would you also somehow contend that the Shenmue demo makes "Halo 2" or "Doom 3" unimpressive?
It seems that you are basing your own arguements on nothing more than nostalgia and assumptions.
PC-Engine
22-Sep-2002, 22:57
PC Engine, would you also somehow contend that the Shenmue demo makes "Halo 2" or "Doom 3" unimpressive?
It seems that you are basing your own arguements on nothing more than nostalgia and assumptions.
Well taking the power advantage of Xbox over DC into consideration, it's unimpressive. As a matter of fact when I first saw pics of Doom 3 I was like..."so this was what all the hype was about?". It has nothing to do with nastalgia. I'm pretty sure there are members here who would agree with me. Doom 3, from the pics I've seen so far, have been extremely underwhelming. Halo 2, same thing. Not really that big of a jump AFAIC.
There are the kind of people who say it's impossible and there are the kind that say we'll find a way to do it. I'm of the latter.
marconelly!
23-Sep-2002, 00:30
First of all that pic only has one person and a blurred background similar to the Shenmue demo so..
Go watch the trailer, that's all I'll say about that :) Watch the car scene with the old guy and the girl, for example. There are other scenes too, but that one comes to mind.
Second a tech demo is actually more interactive than a cutscene ie the camera can be moved dynamically and in the case of Shenmue both the camera AND the light source can be moved dynamically and independently by the user.
I believe the same models as seen on that picture are used *in game*. Together with the same effects and all.
There are the kind of people who say it's impossible and there are the kind that say we'll find a way to do it. I'm of the latter.
That is exactly one of the reasons why I find SH3 so impressive. Just when everyone and their mother started spitting on PS2, Konami made MGS2. And now, they seemingly pushed the hardware so much more with SH3 and ZOE2...
PC-Engine
23-Sep-2002, 00:48
When the camera zooms out, LOD or tesselation comes into play :wink:
BTW remember that other SH3 trailer thread with the cafe scene? It hasn't even been confirmed whether or not the cutscenes were realtime so arguing about this new trailer is pointless anyway :wink:
marconelly!
23-Sep-2002, 01:03
When the camera zooms out, LOD or tesselation comes into play
Isn't that what LOD is for? :)
It hasn't even been confirmed whether or not the cutscenes were realtime so arguing about this new trailer is pointless anyway
Yes, I remember that trailer and that scene. Person who writes for Play magazine was at E3 and talked to Konami people, praising them for their nice FMV work in that scene. They laughed, thanked him, and said it was all realtime :) You can read that in the E3 issue of Play. Programmers also said they do not plan to include any FMV movies in the game except, maybe for one intro movie.
PC-Engine
23-Sep-2002, 01:17
Yes that's what LOD is for and that's why saying the models in the cutscenes are the same ones used ingame doesn't impress me :wink:
BTW I'd rather wait until a website confirms it's realtime before arguing further as it's pretty pointless. It's not that I don't think it's realtime. I just think it needs to be officially confirmed otherwise I'm just wasting my time.
Logan Leonhart
23-Sep-2002, 02:22
Looks to me like someone is in denial. :wink:
God, I still can´t believe what Konami has done with the PS2 hardware. I downloaded the ZOE 2 trailer, and I was absolutely impressed (BTW, which software do you guys use to play the trailer? WMP9 doesn´t support *.asx files anymore, and media jukebox´s performance with it is terrible). :(
Maybe my kinda blind faith in what the system can do had some truth to it, afterall. Archie4oz, will FFXII surpass this? :wink: (Why didn´t Squaresoft show ANYTHING, BTW :(? I was at least expecting the FFX sidestory, but not even that. :evil: )
Seeing Yuna in hotpants was cool, though...:D
PC-Engine
23-Sep-2002, 02:31
Why would I be in denial? I'm pretty sure the PS2 can do those cutscenes in realtime, but what I believe doesn't confirm or deny if it is indeed realtime. I'm still not impressed though that's why I brought up the DC comparison :wink:
The average Joe with no formal art training might think it's mindboggling, but I don't :lol:
And unless someone can prove there's something very special going on in those cutscenes, it all boils down to art :wink:
marconelly!
23-Sep-2002, 03:05
What more special do you want?
- detailed character models
- excellent lighting
- multi texturing (specular highlights, etc)
- volumetric shadows on everything
- self shadowing
- top notch animation (facial and character)
- dynamic lighting illuminates the fog
and then comes the excellent art direction that gives the whole thing that ralistic look.
Logan, Square had Unlimited Saga on display and it turned quite a few heads from what I've heard :)
PC-Engine
23-Sep-2002, 03:38
Just saw that car scene. Man that car is really low poly. It looks like a square box with a texture slapped on. You were saying the backgrounds are high detail. The interior of that car which makes up the background in that scene is not even close to high detail. Heck the guy's torso isn't even high detail. The art is nice but there's nothing technologically advanced about it. I guess Shenmue on DC raised my expectations to a level where it's more difficult to be impressed by cutscenes.
marconelly!
23-Sep-2002, 03:53
I think you are in denial PCEngine :lol:
Did you not see the lighting in that car scene? Did you not see the rest of the trailer?
DC graphics >>>> FF:TSW :o
iscariot
23-Sep-2002, 04:02
if he is not impressed by H2 or D3, then I don't think he'll be impressed with anything in this genration of consoles. Shenmuue 4eva! :P
Ozymandis
23-Sep-2002, 04:04
Yeah, Unlimited SaGa looks fantastic! :o
PC-Engine
23-Sep-2002, 04:09
PS2, Xbox, and GC can all do lighting better than DC...that's expected. Models are a little higher poly than the Shenmue demo...that's expected.
Mulitexturing...expected. Voodoo1 can do multitexturing and so can DC.
Texturing detail is pretty good artwise.
Facial animation is good but isn't that good relative to Shenmue.
Self shadowing is good but DC can also do it.
What's left is art direction which is why it looks very good.
IMO Doom 3 looks worse than SH3 even if it's supposedly more technically advanced. In other words art direction reigns supreme.
archie4oz
23-Sep-2002, 04:30
God, I still can´t believe what Konami has done with the PS2 hardware.
Well it does take time for developers to 'break habits' and/or perceptions and the PS2 does tend to cause you to tend to rethink a lot of problems whereas the other systems are far more straight forward...
Archie4oz, will FFXII surpass this? (Why didn´t Squaresoft show ANYTHING, BTW I was at least expecting the FFX sidestory, but not even that.)
Can't say... It'll certainly be more colorful and it will be an improvement over X of course... As far as showing things, Square (like Nintendo) doesn't show much at TGS anymore and have their own convention...
Seeing Yuna in hotpants was cool, though...
Hehehe, you should see her and cast do a Michael Jackson video... :P
marconelly!
23-Sep-2002, 04:41
Archie, I've seen the Unlimited Saga trailer, that displays lots of people and blue silhouettes walking aroung. It ends with the phrase 'Sketch Motion'. Is that video pre-rendered FMV?
Ozymandis
23-Sep-2002, 05:03
marc, where did you see that trailer? I got to see it!
marconelly!
23-Sep-2002, 05:05
Ozymandis, here you go:
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/saga_0920_1.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/saga_0920_2.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/saga_0920_3.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/saga_0920_4.mov
iscariot
23-Sep-2002, 05:38
In other words art direction reigns supreme
agreed. That's what makes Ico so special looking despite it technical shortcomings...
If you don't have any technical facts to prove otherwise than I can understand why you're speechless :P
I speechless because theirs nothing to say. Your so biased it's laughable:
"Doom 3, from the pics I've seen so far, have been extremely underwhelming. Halo 2, same thing. Not really that big of a jump AFAIC"
"I guess Shenmue on DC raised my expectations to a level where it's more difficult to be impressed by cutscenes"
"I'd really like to see what AM2 can pull off in a new head/torso cutscene TODAY on DC"
BTW: You won't find many to agree with you. It's always a good sign that a games looking good when someone like Alex - who seems to be quite well versed in HLSLs and Fragment Shading - compliments a game on looking incredible.
Ozymandis
23-Sep-2002, 06:06
Ozymandis, here you go:
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/saga_0920_1.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/saga_0920_2.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/saga_0920_3.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/saga_0920_4.mov
Thanks!! :D
marconelly!
23-Sep-2002, 06:10
You are welcome. Now that your sig reminded me, I'm off to play some Ikaruga :)
PC-Engine
23-Sep-2002, 07:48
If you don't have any technical facts to prove otherwise than I can understand why you're speechless :P
I speechless because theirs nothing to say. Your so biased it's laughable:
"Doom 3, from the pics I've seen so far, have been extremely underwhelming. Halo 2, same thing. Not really that big of a jump AFAIC"
"I guess Shenmue on DC raised my expectations to a level where it's more difficult to be impressed by cutscenes"
"I'd really like to see what AM2 can pull off in a new head/torso cutscene TODAY on DC"
BTW: You won't find many to agree with you. It's always a good sign that a games looking good when someone like Alex - who seems to be quite well versed in HLSLs and Fragment Shading - compliments a game on looking incredible.
Actually when I said agree, I was talking about Doom 3. Go find me a D3 screenshot that shows how great it is...if you can :P
As a matter of fact there's a thread in the 3D forum with pics of it :wink:
Please my friend, how and where did Shenmue tech demo look as good as this?
http://www.newtechnix.com/Webmasters/mickurt/Images/SilentHill3_ps2_12.jpg
The light and shadow, the frE@kiN facial details and the old man individual rendered clothes are all above Shenmue head demos... :o
Maybe someone could like post some pics of the Shenmue tech demo...
IMO Shenmue looks good but tad over rated for what it is really worth. :oops: [/list]
PC-Engine
23-Sep-2002, 09:42
I'm going to take some photos of the Shenmue demo on my monitor and post it on the internet tommorrow :wink:
I'm going to change the color palette also to make it look more drab 8)
BTW read what I posted. I said the Shenmue demo gets pretty close to that shot. I didn't say it could match it. Also keep in mind that Shenmue is over 2 years old!!! This game hasn't even been out yet!
alexsok
23-Sep-2002, 09:46
I personally finished both Shenmue and Shenmue II and I agree that they're both graphical masterpieces, both from the art and a technical point of view, but come on man, they don't come close to SH3 in terms of graphical quality (at least judging by the screenshots)!
Also keep in mind that Shenmue is over 2 years old!!! This game hasn't even been out yet!
you have to take into account the diminishing returns. Sometimes, you can only do so much on your conventional TV with current technology.
Oh, and dont turn down the contrast of your shenmue captures, try to keep it as close as what it originally looks like. :oops:
Johnny Awesome
23-Sep-2002, 12:57
Yeah. The Shenmue tech demo is a little bit better than the SH3 stuff here. It does show you that if you spend enough money on art direction and have a limited game engine, you can accomplish quite a bit. The challenge is making the really interactive stuff look good.
I'll admit that I was pretty impressed with the ZOE2 demo as well. It might be the game to finally make me get a PS2. I'll have to check out Unlimited Saga. FFX didn't really compell me to get a PS2 after I played it for about 20 hours. Maybe this will be another PS2 draw for me.
marconelly!
23-Sep-2002, 15:02
Yeah. The Shenmue tech demo is a little bit better than the SH3 stuff here.
:wink: I'm sorry, but your anti PS2 bias is downright amazing if you can say something like this after all that's said and displayed. There is *nothing* better in that tech demo, IMO, it's a lot worse looking from both technical and artistic standpoint. Just watch the whole SH3 trailer.
Johnny Awesome
23-Sep-2002, 15:25
Listen. I'm just giving my opinion. I think the Shenmue head demos look better. Sorry dude.
alexsok
23-Sep-2002, 15:30
Just watch the whole SH3 trailer.
Do u have a link to that full trailer? All I've seen are pics...
All these Shenmue talk is pretty hardcore. No doubt it is a technically excellent game for its time, i find that Shenmue actually showed certain flaws of DC hardware.
Low poly blocky characters and objects, slowdowns, restricted draw distance, static lighting, over contrasted colors, minimal sfx such as motion-blurring and heatwave. :oops:
marconelly!
23-Sep-2002, 15:39
I think the Shenmue head demos look better. Sorry dude.
No offense, I was just joking :) But I really think SH3 is much more impressive - maybe it's just me.
Alex, full trailer can be downloaded at Gamespot if you have membership:
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/media/0,11100,561292,00.html
or you can get the lower quality and the incomplete one in pieces from IGN:
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_1.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_2.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_3.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_4.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_5.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_6.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_7.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_8.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_9.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_10.mov
Ok, got to view that 'famous' car scene. :lol:
I think it is supposed to be raining...
Imagine that scene with 2 hipoly characters, dynamic lighting and MGS2 quality rain! :lol:
Not bad for a PS2 game. :oops:
marconelly!
23-Sep-2002, 15:54
Actually, I was mainly impressed by the lighting in that scene. The way it passes over the car, goes over girl and then diminishes. It looked just right :)
alexsok
23-Sep-2002, 16:40
Alex, full trailer can be downloaded at Gamespot if you have membership:
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/media/0,11100,561292,00.html
or you can get the lower quality and the incomplete one in pieces from IGN:
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_1.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_2.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_3.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_4.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_5.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_6.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_7.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_8.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_9.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/sh3_0919_10.mov
Thx m8, really appreciated! :D
Lets see this oh-so-fabulous Shenmue tech demo already
pics? clips?
zurich
PC-Engine
23-Sep-2002, 19:23
I'm still charging the batteries for my digital camera. I'll have them up shortly :oops:
I saw a 400k QT over at IGN called 'face demo'.
It looked pretty sweet, but unfortunately it was 400k, it was a video of a monitor, and it was a tech demo. ie: could very well have been a dev kit and/or its a _tech_ demo, not a game.
But while we're talking tech demos, anyone remember the Squall/Riona dance PS2 demo? :)
zurich
iscariot
23-Sep-2002, 20:04
sure do
http://psxmedia.ign.com/media/news/image/ps2demo.jpg
http://psxmovies.ign.com/media/news/video/psx2_4.mpg
.
alexsok
23-Sep-2002, 20:18
But while we're talking tech demos, anyone remember the Squall/Riona dance PS2 demo? :)
Oh yeah, I remember that one! :wink:
PC-Engine
23-Sep-2002, 20:49
Ok here are some preliminary shots. I'll post a zoomed out shot with a directional light source later. I'll also go into more detail explaining what animations are occuring etc. and compare them with some different SH3 shots that are easier to compare. Gotta go now. Keep in mind that these are from a monitor through my camera. Not highres devkit, or a capture card.
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/DSCF0009.jpg
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/DSCF0006.jpg
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/DSCF0005.jpg
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/DSCF0004.jpg
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/DSCF0002.jpg
http://www.playscope.com/fichiers/photos/1571/sh3_041.jpg
http://www.playscope.com/fichiers/photos/1571/sh3_044.jpg
http://www.playscope.com/fichiers/photos/1571/sh3_045.jpg
http://www.playscope.com/fichiers/photos/1571/sh3_046.jpg
Shenmue:
1. Real time movable camera
2. Real time movable light source
3. Fine hair animates very nicely
4. Demo includes detailed torso and background.
5. Polygon detail is very close to SH3.
6. Lighting is not as good as SH3..expected
7. No self shadowing not a hardware limitation IMO. Developer decision.
SH3:
1. High res devkit images resampled down and antialiased
2. Cutscene with no movable camera or light source.
3. Polygon detail is sparse in some places like the guys ears.
4. Hair does not animate.
5. LOD is used when camera zooms out to allow two fairly detailed characters in cutscene. Interior of car is low poly, low texture detail.
Ok so after examining these pics, is it really unreasonable for any person to be unimpressed by the cutscene in SH3? DC has aproximately 1/3 the processing power of PS2. It came out 18 months before PS2 and used older technology. Shenmue has been out for over 2 years. SH3 isn't even out yet. If I hadn't seen Shenmue over 2 years ago, I would've been very impressed by the cutscene in SH3 :wink:
Anyway here are a couple shots of the game environment. The color pallete was a developer decision so that's why it looks so vibrant and unrealistic. Again this is a DC game not GC not Xbox :wink:
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/DSCF0007.jpg
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/DSCF0001.jpg
The environments in SH3 aren't that much better than Shenmue either which is surprising considering the PS2 is 3 times more powerful than DC. I think it's pretty obvious why I'm not impressed by SH3, Halo 2, and Doom III :-?
Comments are welcome 8)
marconelly!
23-Sep-2002, 20:55
Yes, that's it. Except that models of that quality are actually displayed only in that tech demo that renders one head and nothing else. It doesn't look nearly as detailed in the game or in the cut scenes.
Logan Leonhart
23-Sep-2002, 21:01
Well, they certainly are quite cool, however:
a) The skin textures are better in SH3
b) The lightning is better in SH3
c) The characters in SH3 have a body, and those do not.:p
d) The facial details are far better
and most important of all
e) I played trought Shenmue 1, the whole game, and it doesn´t even look close to those demos. Ryo´s character model looks kinda blocky, and the rest of the characters look very low polygon. Nice art, though.
BTW, I thought Square no longer held the Square Millenium event (I think that was it´s name...). Oh well, I´m looking forward to it.....when does it take place?
Ozymandis
23-Sep-2002, 23:33
Eternal SaGa is absolutely beautiful. But it looks like an FMV game. I wonder how they are rendering it?
Johnny Awesome
24-Sep-2002, 00:20
Thanks PC-Engine. It's interesting that the PS2 is just now beginning to catch up to the Shenmue demo. It would be interesting to see what Yu Suzuki could do with more powerful hardware like the Xbox.
marconelly!
24-Sep-2002, 00:22
PC-Engine, you have made your mind, so there seems to be no point in trying to change that, but I'd just like to address some of your points:
7. No self shadowing not a hardware limitation IMO. Developer decision.
Don't be so sure. There isn't a single DC game (except maybe for JSR, I'm not sure) that has that feature. Shenmue was thriving for realism, and I'm absolutely sure it was not a developer's decision but more a hardware limitation or the lack of time (although they spent years doing it and fine tuning the engine). I know DC could do it in theory, but with complex demo like that it would probably result in FPS being too low, or just not looking good enough. Again, theorizing of what the machine could do means nothing if noone has ever done it.
2. Cutscene with no movable camera or light source.
SH3 has dynamic lights and atually animated objects moving around in the scene. So both camera and light sources are movable.
4. Hair does not animate.
Actually, it does. Look that long heared woman. When she moves her head, her hair animates accordingly, falling on her shoulders. Young girl's hair is also animated, and very finely and realistically. Watch phone scene, for example.
5. LOD is used when camera zooms out to allow two fairly detailed characters in cutscene.
Shenmue does the same thing in it's cut scenes and in-game, but frankly, I don't understand your point here. Of course they are going to use LOD - offline rendered movies use different LOD for characters that are farther away. Why is it wrong using less detail when you wouldn't be able to see the extra detail on the model that is farther away, anyways?
low texture detail
I hate using the rolleyes icon, but this one just screams for it :P
Again, just compare the actual games. Compare the models, the lighting, the textures, the shadows (not only self shadows, SH3 has what looks like unified lighting model where shadows are being cast on everything) There is no 'catching up' here. SH2 graphics were already more impressive technically then Shenmue, and this simply leaves it in the dust.
There was a Quake 1 mod/CS project I read up on a while ago at some US University, "Non-Photorealistic Rendering" (NPR).
The students had modified the Q1 source to render everything in 3 pre-set ways.
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/graphics/Gallery/NPRQuake/sketchScreen.jpg
1. To look like it had be sketched by pencil
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/graphics/Gallery/NPRQuake/bprintScreen.jpg
2. To look like it had been drawn as a blueprint
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/graphics/Gallery/NPRQuake/brushScreen.jpg
3. To look like it had been painted w/brush strokes.
Unlimited SaGa immediately struck me as looking like it was rendered much like #1 and #3. These are just screenshots, you have to download the .exe and see them in motion... absolutely amazing.
There's source and all the docs up on the website for you Devs here to check out.
If anyone in the know could possibly explain how the rendering works in not-Dev-speak, it'd be appreciated!
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/graphics/Gallery/NPRQuake/
zurich
Ozymandis
24-Sep-2002, 00:30
Marc, Sonic Adventure 2 also uses self-shadowing. Just FYI :)
Great link BTW zurich. And this is OT, but isn't there a cel-shaded Quake2 mod out there too?
LogisticX
24-Sep-2002, 00:32
One main thing that I think is being neglected here is framerate... SH3 is supposed to be running at 60 fps.... Shenmue had a lot of problems maintaining a constant 30 fps.
Huge difference in rendering.
iscariot
24-Sep-2002, 00:34
Sh2 ran at 30fps(CG & 60fps) so Sh3 presumably does the same. You wouldn't need 60fps for a game such as SH anyway...
marconelly!
24-Sep-2002, 00:44
Marc, Sonic Adventure 2 also uses self-shadowing. Just FYI
I stand corrected. However, I believe models in SA2 are all cartoon like and much simpler compared to Shenmue demo or SH3.
iscariot
24-Sep-2002, 00:49
the WSB series on DC also uses SS iirc
PC-Engine
24-Sep-2002, 01:58
Regarding the low texture detail, look at the car interior, it's very sparse texture wise AND polygon wise. The reason for that is obvious. Most of the poly crunching power were devoted to the characters leaving little left for the rest. Also remember that the camera and lights are scripted. You can't move them at will. Ingame you do have control, but the detail has already been decreased from those of the cutscene.
Also notice that the use of fog or pitch black darkness cleverly relieves the engine from having to display huge draw distances. Being the style of game that it is allows that clever technique.
Anyway the pics are up so all the viewers can decide for themselves. 640x480 frame buffer grabs would've been nice for comparison instead of those high res PR devkit renders 8)
archie4oz
24-Sep-2002, 02:26
Anyway the pics are up so all the viewers can decide for themselves. 640x480 frame buffer grabs would've been nice for comparison instead of those high res PR devkit renders
The frame-buffer size and display capabilities of a DTL and a PS2 are the same... :-?
PC-Engine
24-Sep-2002, 02:43
Anyway the pics are up so all the viewers can decide for themselves. 640x480 frame buffer grabs would've been nice for comparison instead of those high res PR devkit renders
The frame-buffer size and display capabilities of a DTL and a PS2 are the same... :-?
Well then that means those high rez renders were running at very low framerates if they're indeed frame buffer grabs. Obviously they've been antialiased also. So what would your guess be? They sure aren't 640x480 fb grabs :wink:
marconelly!
24-Sep-2002, 02:59
PC Engine, it would also be fair if could get the actual frame buffer shots of Shenmue demo, then, as the actual demo doesn't have any of the antialiasing your pictures got by photographing the screen.
I don't even know why this debate exists.
Shenmue Tech Demo = a demo whose technology was obviously never used (looking at S1&2)
Silent Hill 3 = a real game that you can play.
Why is a comparison even being drawn?
zurich
PC-Engine
24-Sep-2002, 03:06
True, but I don't work for SEGA so I have no choice plus mine was rendered at 640x480 not exactly 1506x1147 and running at 5 fps. Does that sound right Archie4oz? :P
Everyone knows they're high rez PR shots from Konami grabbed from a DTL :wink:
PC-Engine
24-Sep-2002, 03:09
I don't even know why this debate exists.
Shenmue Tech Demo = a demo whose technology was obviously never used (looking at S1&2)
Silent Hill 3 = a real game that you can play.
Why is a comparison even being drawn?
zurich
You don't have control over characters in cutscenes :wink:
marconelly!
24-Sep-2002, 03:17
Everyone knows they're high rez PR shots from Konami grabbed from a DTL
True, but I'm just saying - if we can't provide real (non-antialiased) shots of Shenmue demo, it would be unfair to ask for non-antialiased shots of SH3 either, if we are comparing them.
Besides, everyone knew DOA3 shots were high res PR, but the game looked pretty much just as good...[/quote]
PC-Engine
24-Sep-2002, 03:24
I understand what you're saying but Shenmue is still being rendered at 640x480 while the SH3 shots were rendered at 1506x1147, downsampled to 640x480 THEN AA. If we remove AA from both we'd still have 640x480 vs 1506x1147 without AA. Even the downsampled nonAA 640x480 SH3 shot will have a quality advantage over the nonAA Shenmue ones since downsampling through a filter in Photoshop isn't the same native 640x480 rendering. I've already discussed this before in the other SH3 trailer thread.
Also didn't DOA3 have aliasing artifacts? If it didn't then it must have been using AA. Does SH3 have AA running on PS2?
marconelly!
24-Sep-2002, 03:30
Didn't DOA3 have aliasing artifacts?
It did, but they were minor. Nothing to complain about, really, especially on a smaller TV that I have. I suspect SH3 will be the same.
Logan Leonhart
24-Sep-2002, 03:31
You don't have control over characters in cutscenes :wink:
But the PS2 IS rendering the rest of the environment, unlike Shenmue´s demo. ;) ;) BTW, I just saw some Xbox pics of Shenmue 2, and Ryo´s model doesn´t even compare to what is shown in the demo, not even in cutscenes. It´s far, far less detailed. I don´t know what you´re arguing really, in this case you´re comparing a demo with 0% of chances of happening in the real game (DC´s poligon budget was just too low) versus a game that is being displayed on a real game. It really is lacking in the logic department.
PC-Engine
24-Sep-2002, 03:49
You don't have control over characters in cutscenes :wink:
But the PS2 IS rendering the rest of the environment, unlike Shenmue´s demo. ;) ;) BTW, I just saw some Xbox pics of Shenmue 2, and Ryo´s model doesn´t even compare to what is shown in the demo, not even in cutscenes. It´s far, far less detailed. I don´t know what you´re arguing really, in this case you´re comparing a demo with 0% of chances of happening in the real game (DC´s poligon budget was just too low) versus a game that is being displayed on a real game. It really is lacking in the logic department.
When the camera zooms in during the cutscenes in SH3 the detail is very high within the camera window, 90% of everything outside the window is NOT being rendered so in effect you have a Shenmue demo going but without the control :wink:
The ingame graphics in SH3 isn't of the same quality of the cutscenes either so where's the logic in bringing that up regarding Shenmue?
You are looking at PR shots of SH3 aren't you? Have you seen detailed ingame shots of SH3? Their detail level isn't the same as those in the cutscenes :wink: Specifically closeup high detail cutscene shots. The wide camera angle SH3 cutscenes are LOD managed like the ingame stuff so the detail is down just like Shenmue's ingame and cutscene stuff so there's not much of an advantage there either.
PC-Engine
24-Sep-2002, 04:05
If you don't understand then just ask. The people who understand what I'm taking about are listening. I'm trying to have an intelligent debate. Let's not start acting like f*nboys :P
marconelly!
24-Sep-2002, 04:32
The ingame graphics in SH3 isn't of the same quality of the cutscenes either so where's the logic in bringing that up regarding Shenmue?
We don't really know that yet, but, again, Justin / IGN who played the game said the in game models looked just like those in cut scenes. Lighting and shadows ingame and in cut scenes look the same to me judging from this trailer.
zidane1strife
24-Sep-2002, 04:36
WTF?!? what's shenmue doing here, that's basically a psx title with poly upgrades in da faces and some areas!!! It's blocka shimmerathon!!!
Clearly the same engine for the game is used on those techy demos, and although impressive it is very clear the real world performance of such engine.
Sure the shenmue demos are nice and all, so where many of the original ps2 demos, with what was it? something like 100K poly heads?!?
I dunno but the ingame SH3 in my eyes beats the techy demos in shenmue... although my memory could be failing me.... but i doubt it...
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/DSCF0007.jpg
Wow, this is a good looking game to you? The PS2's biggest budget game thats somewhat along the same lines in level design is The Getaway and it eats this alive.
But, going back to the Tech Demo, which looks nothing like the actual game - how does this:
http://www.playscope.com/fichiers/photos/1571/sh3_044.jpg
http://www.newtechnix.com/Webmasters/mickurt/Images/SilentHill3_ps2_12.jpg
Look anywhere below or even near this:
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/DSCF0006.jpg
The texturing, lighting, and polygonal mesh in SH3s characters are so much better. It's easy to do the flawless, rubbery look - kind of reminds me of Outcast2's outdoor textures (just the outdoor textures, everything else was supurb) ; nothing technically amazing, but artistically well done and... try making a face thats realistic. nVidia has(d) a demo that launched with NV20 that had a gypsy IIRC and looked similar to the old man - it's useage of fragment shading and had an increadably dense mesh that was amazing. The DC couldn't even come close to that.
Forget a contemporary head demo on DC< do one on PS2 or preferable XBox. It's usage of fragment shading would be mind-boggling. Hell, if your just rendering a head, the polygon mesh could be amazingly dense - 10 to 15M polygons for a demo face on the 'box would impressive in itself.
marconelly!
24-Sep-2002, 05:12
15 to 20M polygons for a face on the 'box would impressive in itself
Only if you want 1FPS or less than that :)
You could have a 600,000 polygon face at 30ish FPS I think, although, what would be the point of modeling the face with such an insane number of polygons? :)
Shenmue Old Man:
http://mediaviewer.ign.com/ignMediaPage.jsp?media_id=1347355&object_id=14499&channel_id=62&page_title=Shenmue&adString=network%3Dign%26site%3Ddreamcastviewer&return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdreamcast.ign.com%2Fobject s%2F014%2F014499.html
EDIT: IGN link doesn't want to work... so I switched to the URL.
Silent Hill 3 Old Man:
http://www.newtechnix.com/Webmasters/mickurt/Images/SilentHill3_ps2_12.jpg
Like looking at Toy Story1 and FF:TSW....
Also note that the Shenmue demo Old Man has no background at all... *Cough*
You could have a 600,000 polygon face at 30ish FPS I think, although, what would be the point of modeling the face with such an insane number of polygons? :)
Yeah, sorry, I ment the total system polygon output, not per model. I stated that badly...
PC-Engine
24-Sep-2002, 08:21
The Getaway? :lol: Is it out? Will it ever? Again Shenmue is over 2 years old on dated hardware. Comparing it to Shenmue is laughable. It has major framerate problems and flickers like crazy. There's something really wrong when the latest and greatest can't even beat a 2 year old title on an even older piece of hardware :wink:
Regarding Shenmue, obviously different artists will choose to create different looks. Just because it doesn't align with something like FFTSW doesn't make is less artistic or less impressive. Toy Story is extremely artistic btw and anybody who thinks otherwise probably doesn't have any clue and no artistic talent to begin with. Cel-shading done right can also look very impressive. The comparsion between Shenmue and SH3 isn't about art styles anyway. It's about a 2 year old game running on dated hardware and rendering images that are nearly as good as that being rendered by the latest software on hardware 3 times as powerful :wink:
The old man demo on my DC has a background btw :lol:
Sorry but thems the facts :lol:
http://www.playscope.com/fichiers/photos/1571/sh3_039.jpg
Look at that outdoor scene...extremely underwhelming I'd say. BTW that Shenmue girl is not supposed to be an old woman. Why not compare it to the female characters models from SH3 8) Having wrinkles does cause one to go WOW!! Also I've already explained why the SH3 cutscene isn't anything more than the Shenmue demo during closeup shots as it's not rendering anything outside the camera view. Look at the background behind that guy with the hat. What is that? A flat texture? Where's the detailed background environments? Looks like the most impressive SH3 character shot doesn't contain any 3D data for the backgrounds. Why is that?
Ok so after examining these pics, is it really unreasonable for any person to be unimpressed by the cutscene in SH3?
Maybe if we are comparing Shenmue cutscenes with SH3 cutscenes...
. It has major framerate problems and flickers like crazy.
Yup, thats part of Shenmue technical problems. :lol:
Comparing these 2 shots, i dont see what is so underwhelming with SH3..
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/DSCF0007.jpg
http://www.playscope.com/fichiers/photos/1571/sh3_039.jpg
Face it, the SH3 old dude cutscene is more WOW than Shenmue head demo. Not only it is rendering more stuffs, it has better lighting, textures and details. 8)
Dated hardware, diminishing returns. I would love to see DC do a game like ZOE2 though. :)
DC is a great hardware for its time, so is PS2, GC and Xbox. But DC fanboys are making it as though its the messiah of 3D rendering. And thats irritating to hell. I guessed if DC had not died a 'honorable death', people wont be making so much a fuss about the hardware. :cry: :oops:
PC-Engine
24-Sep-2002, 09:22
It seems like people are ignoring facts left and right. Here compare this with the Shenmue FEMALE. It's a more accurate comparison.
http://www.playscope.com/fichiers/photos/1571/sh3_041.jpg
BTW go to the local mall sometime and look for a really old man. Take a picture of him. Now go find a 20 yr old female with fine skin and take a picture of her. Now compare the two. I'm talking real people not CG. I gurantee 99% of the people who compares the two photographs will be more moved by the old man. Consider it a lesson in art/photography. I think I've made my point quite well 8)
Should I also give a lesson in cinematography? :lol:
It seems like people are ignoring facts left and right
So what are the facts? That the DC hardware is over rated beyond its actual worth? Make no mistake, it is a great piece of Sega kit, and thats it.
Nothing more nothing less.
Vince posted a link to Shenmue old man demo, now compare that with SH3 dude if you will.
Here is the link for the lazy. Insider account needed if you exceeded IGN daily free visit pass. 5 times i think.
http://mediaviewer.ign.com/ignMediaPage.jsp?media_id=1347355&object_id=14499&channel_id=62&page_title=Shenmue&adString=network%3Dign%26site%3Ddreamcastviewer&return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdreamcast.ign.com%2Fobject s%2F014%2F014499.html
:oops:
PC-Engine
24-Sep-2002, 09:52
Like I've said many times already. The SH3 cutscenes DO NOT impress me. I'm not the average Joe that doesn't have a clue as to what can be done and what can't. Shenmue impressed me over 2 years ago and it still does today considering the hardware it's running on. One doesn't have to have a f*nboy mentality to grasp that concept. :wink:
Oh well, thats that then. :oops:
PC-Engine
24-Sep-2002, 10:09
Don't get me wrong. The SH3 old man does look better than the Shenmue demos, but it's not THAT much better when all things are taken into consideration.
The old Shenmue dude looks very very very 'texturey'. IE: next to no lighting, very low poly count. Its as if a face texture was wrapped around a sphere, cause those wrinkes look more like scars ;)
SH3 guy/chick has lighting and a much higher poly look to her face. Stills are one thing, but KH & FF X proved that it takes a fully animated face to be believable. Thats to say that you can pretty much fake any given look with a well drawn texture, but without the other goodies (polys, lighting, perpixel, etc) it looses its quality in motion.
I'm sure Shenmue was great in 1999, but its time has obviously past. It shows that its 2 years old and 1/3rd the 'power' of the PS2. Hell, all the online press have said in chorus that Xbox Shenmue 2, despite the smooth framerate, AF, AA, mipmapping, etc., is very visually underwhelming.
PC-Engine, I suggest if you're so high on art that you check out Kingdom Hearts. Completely different style, but it seriously earns all the praise its gotten.
zurich
PC-Engine
24-Sep-2002, 10:21
Shenmu 2 for Xbox is a port and it doesn't offer anything new over the DC version artwise that's why everyone is underwhelmed by it especially considering the hardware it's running on. As a matter of fact it's a bad port from the screens I've seen so far.
I'll check out KH btw :)
ahum ppl are not talking about ZOE2 anymore?
-aneep-
Since we are talking about Unlimited Saga too. i Like to say that the 2 Saga games i played on PS1 are tad underwhelming.
Very very pretty artwork, but fragmentated gameplay and story.
I love it that people still think the DC is more powerful than the PS2.
zidane1strife
24-Sep-2002, 14:41
Hey if we're gonna go praising old h/w why not bring in the psx and n64... i mean many of the late psx/n64 title can still pass off as cheapo next gen games....
Johnny Awesome
24-Sep-2002, 15:38
PC-Engine:
Don't bother anymore. PS2 fans don't want to admit that the PS2 is deficient in areas it shouldn't be. The Shenmue head demos are comparable to the Silent Hill 3 cutscenes. Anyone who can't see that is blind. The in-game graphics in Shenmue are a mixed bag, but there is more detail in the texturing than in Silent Hill 3. That's not suprising, given the DC's great VQ compression.
I'll be the first to admit that the average PS2 game has finally risen above the average DC game in terms of visuals, but the best on both platforms are still quite comparable, depending on your tastes. Sonic Adventure 2, Ecco, Shenmue, and PSO are all extremely nice looking games. Of course the PS2 is better at geometry and lighting, which PS2 fans focus on while ingoring the worse texturing.
But at least Silent Hill 3 and ZOE2 have given PS2 owners something positive to compare to Shenmue. Now they don't have to fall back on their previous favorite: "But where is the gameplay? Graphics aren't everything you know" argument regarding Shenmue. :roll:
Someone like me would say the same thing about SH3. :)
PC-Engine:
Don't bother anymore. PS2 fans don't want to admit that the PS2 is deficient in areas it shouldn't be. The Shenmue head demos are comparable to the Silent Hill 3 cutscenes. Anyone who can't see that is blind. The in-game graphics in Shenmue are a mixed bag, but there is more detail in the texturing than in Silent Hill 3. That's not suprising, given the DC's great VQ compression.
I'll be the first to admit that the average PS2 game has finally risen above the average DC game in terms of visuals, but the best on both platforms are still quite comparable, depending on your tastes. Sonic Adventure 2, Ecco, Shenmue, and PSO are all extremely nice looking games. Of course the PS2 is better at geometry and lighting, which PS2 fans focus on while ingoring the worse texturing.
But at least Silent Hill 3 and ZOE2 have given PS2 owners something positive to compare to Shenmue. Now they don't have to fall back on their previous favorite: "But where is the gameplay? Graphics aren't everything you know" argument regarding Shenmue. :roll:
Someone like me would say the same thing about SH3. :)
*yawnzz* where is Mr Big Rolleyes when you need him.
Bitter DC fanboys are scary, very scary. :oops:
marconelly!
24-Sep-2002, 16:22
The Shenmue head demos are comparable to the Silent Hill 3 cutscenes.
The Shenmue head demos are also comparable to Final Fantasy TSW renders. Not favorably if I can say :)
The in-game graphics in Shenmue are a mixed bag, but there is more detail in the texturing than in Silent Hill 3.
Sorry, but...
SH2 already had better textures than Shenmue. If you have an Xbox version, you can see that for yourself, as it's virtually identical to PS2 SH2, except for the vertex lighting on the walls.
PC-Engine
24-Sep-2002, 16:53
Someone like me would say the same thing about SH3.
indeed :lol: Shenmue does so many things in addition to the graphics that it's not even funny.
I love it that people still think the DC is more powerful than the PS2.
Umm..learn how to read other's posts. Nobody is claiming DC as more powerful. It's only 1/3 as powerful. Again learn how to read :oops:
Marconelly, SH2 and SH3 isn't even rendering the same level of environmental density. The neighborhoods in Shenmue are PACKED very densely and consists of a variety of textures. There are trees, fences, balconies, stairs, shrubs, telephone poles, street lights, bicycles, cars, vending machines, bubble gum machines, and the list goes on and on. The outdoor environments in SH are so sparse it's not even funny. The DRAW distances at the dock stage in Shenmue are HUGE with no popup and no fog! The areas in SH are TINY compared to Shenmue's. Texturing one building and texturing an entire neighborhood are two totally different cases. Anyway enough of my rambling 8)
I'm currently playing through Shenmue2, something a lot of people here will/have not done. The game is extremely impressive in motion due to its sheer variety of textures and the wonderful art direction. Now, when you froze the game, things tend to be much worse. But a game is not meant to be frozen so that is ok.
Gameplay wise, I've much reservations, but that is not the topic.
SH2 already had better textures than Shenmue. If you have an Xbox version, you can see that for yourself, as it's virtually identical to PS2 SH2, except for the vertex lighting on the walls.
Xbox version has perpixel lighting, sharper textures, and more realistic fog. I have both ;)
zurich
marconelly!
24-Sep-2002, 21:03
Xbox version has perpixel lighting, sharper textures, and more realistic fog. I have both
Can you tell me what is the difference in fog? From what I've seen of Xbox version (I don't have it) it looked just the same... And I definitely couldn't see any difference in texturing as they both looked great :\
The only thing I've really noticed in Xbox version was perpixel lighting on the walls and worse FMV quality.
Eh, hard to explain, you have to see it in motion. The fog just seemed to be smoother and have more depth. The shadowmaps are also slightly higher res on the Xbox too. I wouldn't believe the GIA thing on the FMV quality, because its virtually indistinguishable. One place where the Xbox version does suffer though, ironically, is load times. Go figure.
zurich
marconelly!
24-Sep-2002, 21:22
I've played xbox version, but very briefly, and didn't have the ps2 side by side to compare. so I guess I noticed only the most obvious things.
I don't know what's GIA, but FMVs definitely looked worse - compression artifacts were quite obvious in places and it run at what looked like 30FPS, while ps2 FMVs in that game look like 60FPS, which I thought was unusual.
Laa-Yosh
24-Sep-2002, 22:05
Being a 3D artist to make a living, I thought I'd drop in a few comments.
The Shenmue tech demos have a cartoonish look to them, however they have quite a lot of polygons and high res textures too. They look a bit like the FF8 cutscene characters; so this is a question of style. A more realistic look could be achived with these possibilities - the old man face linked on the previous page has a detail level that's at least comparable to the SH3 models.
SH3, on the other hand, has a more realistic style and very high quality art created for it. It would, however, lose a bit of its coolness in motion, as all the smaller details are static, painted in the texture - as far as I can see, there aren't any specular maps and obviously no bump mapping there either. The only thing that it can beat the Dreamcast in is the lighting - this is some very nice vertex lighting, better than the standard OpenGL stuff I could get in, say, a Maya or Max shaded viewport.
So, I'd say that it is the art that makes SH3 look dramatically better for me - and based on the general perception here, many of you have the same opinion. Keep in mind though, that the content creation tools have evolved a lot in the past 3 years as well. Most PCs can beat even the top-notch SGI Octane workstations in performance, and the capabilities of 3D applications have leveraged as well. In terms of modeling and texturing, a cheap PC with a copy of Lightwave ( $1500) or Maya (2000$) can go a lot further than the 10.000$ Alias Poweranimator back in the nineties. Artists are more experienced as well, so they are capable of delivering more and better looking content in the same time. I'm quite confident, that given the same Dreamcast hardware, a tech demo produced today would be able to look a lot better and very similar to the SH3 characters. Obviously the DC would not be able to recreate whole scenes, but a single textured face should not be a problem.
So, IMHO it is the style and quality of the art in SH3 that makes the real difference. Oh, and I have a hard time believing that it runs on a PS2 :))
Ozymandis
24-Sep-2002, 22:06
Since we are talking about Unlimited Saga too. i Like to say that the 2 Saga games i played on PS1 are tad underwhelming.
Very very pretty artwork, but fragmentated gameplay and story.
But they still sold incredibly well. Which is kind of funny.
I don't think that SaGa Frontier was a terrible RPG, but it wasn't good either. I have yet to pick up SF II, I'm going to look for it this weekend I think.
marconelly!
24-Sep-2002, 22:21
It would, however, lose a bit of its coolness in motion
It's exactly the opposite IMO, as the animation is really well done. That particular scene with the old man looks really good in the trailer. Also, I think specular highlights are used in places. It looks like girl's jacket has them, and some other places too?
Shenmue face demos are obviously very detailed and well done, but that's all the machine is rendering in them - one head and part of a torso. There's much more going on in SH3 than that.
Laa-Yosh
24-Sep-2002, 22:44
It's exactly the opposite IMO, as the animation is really well done. That particular scene with the old man looks really good in the trailer. Also, I think specular highlights are used in places. It looks like girl's jacket has them, and some other places too?
Speculars there might be, but I can see no sign of specular/gloss maps. What I meant was that when the character moves, you can see that the little wrinkles, bumps and such are painted and thus their shading is static.
Shenmue face demos are obviously very detailed and well done, but that's all the machine is rendering in them - one head and part of a torso.
Yes, obviously the PS2 has a lot more power... It's just that there's no big technological leap, but a nice increase in performance between the DC techdemo and the PS2 game (although the vertex lighting is very nice).
marconelly!
24-Sep-2002, 23:02
I agree, the lighting is one of the biggest differences, although I think the actual biggest difference is how the shadows work in the game. They are done very realistically, shadows closer to object casting them look harder than those farther away, and apparently, everything casts shadows on everything. Very nice, IMO :)
I would also like to see the way light affects gasseous objects for myself, as the trailer does not show that :(
Umm..learn how to read other's posts. Nobody is claiming DC as more powerful. It's only 1/3 as powerful. Again learn how to read :oops:
Marconelly, SH2 and SH3 isn't even rendering the same level of environmental density. The neighborhoods in Shenmue are PACKED very densely and consists of a variety of textures. There are trees, fences, balconies, stairs, shrubs, telephone poles, street lights, bicycles, cars, vending machines, bubble gum machines, and the list goes on and on. The outdoor environments in SH are so sparse it's not even funny. The DRAW distances at the dock stage in Shenmue are HUGE with no popup and no fog! The areas in SH are TINY compared to Shenmue's. Texturing one building and texturing an entire neighborhood are two totally different cases. Anyway enough of my rambling 8)
You criticize me on my ability to be able to read posts, and then post exactly what I was talking about.
As well as stuff from Johnny Awesome like:
The in-game graphics in Shenmue are a mixed bag, but there is more detail in the texturing than in Silent Hill 3.
You guys are claiming there's better texturing on Shenmue...
Shenmue had very average textures. They were fairly varied, but in many cases very blurry (what was with his jacket?) and they shimmered like a bitch. I hear many DC fanboys criticizing PS2 for its image quality, but Shenmue was one of the lower quality DC titles. It shimmered, it sparkled, it had terrible pop-in, and slowdown.
There wasn't that much background detail in Shenmue either btw...
Go watch the Zoe 2 trailer. Hell, go play TTT, a first gen PS2 title, to see graphics more pleasing to the eye than Shenmue.
Logan Leonhart
25-Sep-2002, 03:16
I still can´t believe that fans of that overrated hardware are still claiming Shenmue looks better. The flaw in logic is that DC is only rendering a head, what about the rest?. They claim "pop in the passport disc", I claim, pop in the real game, and it doesn´t even look close to those head demos, in either the cutscenes or gameplay. Maybe STRICTLY the heads look comparable to SH3´s in the head demo, but you would never, EVER see that quality of poligon detail in a real game on the DC. And you´re seeing it on PS2, end of the story. Your argument is as stupid as me saying that I can no longer be impressed by CG graphics after seeing FF:TSW. It´s not opinion it´s blindness.
randycat99
25-Sep-2002, 03:44
My beloved 3D0 could pull off a better looking eyeball than the one in that old man picture! :wink: I am unimpressed with any CG that has come since the 3D0 ruled the Earth. :lol:
Johnny Awesome
25-Sep-2002, 05:37
Apples = Apples. Not oranges. Just so you know Logan. :wink:
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 08:48
Has Konami's PR department released any shots of the old man INGAME instead of cutscene? I wonder why :wink:
Fact: character models INGAME for SH3 is less detailed than the cutscenes just like they are in Shenmue. Like Laa Yosh (professional artist) said, nice art = more impressive. Lighting is better in SH3 though, but everyone expected that :wink:
The graphics of SH3 is much better than graphic of Shenmue, texturing, geometry, lighting, all is on another plane. It's so simply and it's impossible don't see that.
abbA
I'd like to see, one title like ZoE2 run on Dreamcast at 2 frame/sec...! :D
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 09:17
To JOE everything is cut and dry :lol:
Some of us here are not simpletons :wink:
To JOE everything is cut and dry :lol:
Some of us here are not simpletons :wink:
Perhaps a bit blinded..! :wink:
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 09:47
To JOE everything is cut and dry :lol:
Some of us here are not simpletons :wink:
Perhaps a bit blinded..! :wink:
If that was the case the ART issue wouldn't of come up would it? :wink:
To JOE everything is cut and dry :lol:
Some of us here are not simpletons :wink:
Perhaps a bit blinded..! :wink:
If that was the case the ART issue wouldn't of come up would it? :wink:
http://dcmedia.ign.com/media/news2/image/japanese/010601update/bg10.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2002/vgnews/090402/sh3_screen010.jpg
http://dcmedia.ign.com/media/news2/image/japanese/010601update/bg15.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2002/vgnews/092302/silenthill3/sh3_screen014.jpg
http://dcmedia.ign.com/media/news2/image/japanese/010601update/bg20.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2002/vgnews/092302/silenthill3/sh3_screen001.jpg
For me there is "no match"..! :wink:
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 10:51
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/DSCF0005.jpg
1999 DC
http://www.playscope.com/fichiers/photos/1571/sh3_041.jpg
2002 PS2
Oh btw, the intro cutscene to Shenmue I uses the exact same 3d model as the head demo and it includes the whole girl's body and surrounding scenery which is comprised of mountain cliffs. :wink:
PC-Engine: *cough*
You're struggling.
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 11:14
Not really.
Crazyace
25-Sep-2002, 11:19
DC and PS2 are pretty comparable in performance...
the big difference for me is that the Shenmue head demo is a completely seperate piece of code to the game, and as such will be tuned to really maximise the use of the hardware ( I seen to recall that the appearence of these tech demos followed the square 'old man' head demo at the march 1999 PS2 unveiling )
The SH3 real time demo, is part of the game engine, so will not be as tuned to one individual scene...
Also, self shadowing is quite complex, although simple fixed volume shadows are more fill rate than anything else.....
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 11:27
Very true, but the cutscenes in Shenmue excluding the intro cutscene was tuned to allow for multiple character models to be in the the same scene. Some scenes have as many as 8 character models all displayed at the same time therefore it makes sense to target the a character model for a worse case scenario. Worse case scenario for SH3 is 2 characters. It's really not as cut and dry as most people think.
The only cutscene that probably came the closest to maximising the DC is the intro cutscene which uses the exact 3d model as the head demos. Again this was in 1999 8)
This is Shenmue
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/screenshots/dc/shenmue/shenmue_b3_screen005.jpg
This is the INTRO
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/screenshots/dc/shenmue/shenmue_b2_screen002.jpg
This is SH3
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2002/vgnews/092302/silenthill3/sh3_screen006.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2002/vgnews/092302/silenthill3/sh3_screen009.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2002/vgnews/090402/sh3_screen014.jpg
I'm sorry...NO MATCH..it is so simple and clearly..! :) :wink:
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 11:37
Finding the worst captures on the net and comparing them to 1506x1147 antialiased DTL shots is indeed ingenious :wink:
Would you like to see what the Shenmue intro cutscene looks like through my camera? 8)
It's fairly obvious we're not going to convince you otherwise.
But to me Zoe 2 and SH3 look amazing. They're great examples of the strides PS2 has made in improving its image quality, and I'd say are really stressing the system. There is no way Dreamcast could produce these graphics. The system was an excellent, well balanced console, but let's face it - it was running a 100Mhz graphics processor and a 200Mhz SH4, hardly graphical powerhouses.
I think people tend to overstate Dreamcast's graphics somewhat. Soul Calibur is still a fantastic looking game, but stack it up to TTT or Tekken 4 and it's obviously been bettered. Shenmue was a significant achievement for its time - as are these games. I'm not sure why you think otherwise, when even many Xbox or PC games don't look as good as Zoe2 or SH3.
Crazyace
25-Sep-2002, 12:24
The intro model, while extremely good, isn't the same as the head demo model - there are slight differences ( even looking at the data )
I love the shenmue intro - but it really annoyed me that her hear animatied completely through her face as the camera swooped in - It looked like a Z buffer glitch..
SH3 seems to be using lessons learned from MGS2 - the cut scenes appear to be rendered as letterbox, to allow for 2 or 3x vertical supersampling ( Similar to the Rogue squadron cut scenes, as the gamecube can only realistically generate FSAA with reduced vertical size due to the framebuffer configuration )
It would be quite cool to see how Shenmue would come out on the PS2, now that AM2 have cut their teeth on the architecture with the VF4 port..
( I might see if I can grab the model geometry and texture data - It would make a great Linux demo.. )
Would you like to see what the Shenmue intro
cutscene looks like through my camera? 8)
Ok, but the result will be the same! :wink:
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 13:13
Would you like to see what the Shenmue intro
cutscene looks like through my camera? 8)
Ok, but the result will be the same! :wink:
Well if you can find pics of the head demos from Gamespot that are as good as the ones I took with my camera then they would look the same, otherwise... :wink:
CrazyAce, it is the exact head model of the *other* girl. I can tell because the screen freezes at the end of the scene and you can cleary see the same details. BTW just out of curiosity, how can you get access to the model data? Are you a programmer at AM2? Do you have a DC devkit? Seriously :D
Keep in mind that the colors and style of the Shenmue models was a choice by the developer. Like Laa Yosh has said, it doesn't look realistic because it isn't aiming for the same style as SH3. However, the texture resolution and polygon complexity is comparable to SH3.
Also of note are the NPC models. Those models will not look as good as the main character models as there are over 50 of them. AM2 isn't going to spend the same amount of time on those models as the main character models for obvious reasons. Keep that in mind when looking at pics with multiple NPCs on screen.
IIRC, the Shenhua intro doesnt look the same as the head demo, even when the cam zooms up on her face.
marconelly!
25-Sep-2002, 16:13
Worse case scenario for SH3 is 2 characters. It's really not as cut and dry as most people think.
This trailer alone has scenes with at least 3 or 4 characters (main character and the enemies) all with the crazy shadowing and other effects going on.
It's just funny how much Abba's pictures put things into perspective...
The art excuse just doesn't work, IMO because everything in the actual Shenmue cut scenes is so obviously weaker. It's not only model complexity and textures, but the overal look that is so lacking. Lighting is completely flat, shadows so simple... There's no feeling of depth and volume.
Oh, and those 'worst' Shenmue captures are provided by AM2 themseves, (look the signature) and are also scaled down framebuffer shots that have none of the bad aliasing the actual game has.
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 19:19
This trailer alone has scenes with at least 3 or 4 characters (main character and the enemies) all with the crazy shadowing and other effects going on.
I wouldn't call walking blobs high poly :lol:
It's just funny how much Abba's pictures put things into perspective...
What's funny is comparing piss poor low res grabs with 1506x1147 DTL fb grabs running at who knows what framerate :lol:
Actually his Shenmue shots show how modeling NPCs was a low priority at AM2. Why spend the same amount of time modeling each NPC (over 50 unique characters) as the main characters when the player only sees them for a brief moment throughout the entire game? :wink:
The art excuse just doesn't work, IMO because everything in the actual Shenmue cut scenes is so obviously weaker. It's not only model complexity and textures, but the overal look that is so lacking. Lighting is completely flat, shadows so simple... There's no feeling of depth and volume.
Laa-Yosh KNOWS what he's talking about and he also knows what I'm talking about too. Also I trust his judgement because I myself am also an artist. It takes a special eye to see beyond the surface. The sad fact is, some people have it, some people don't..there's really no need to explaing further :wink:
Oh, and those 'worst' Shenmue captures are provided by AM2 themseves, (look the signature) and are also scaled down framebuffer shots that have none of the bad aliasing the actual game has.
SEGA's PR department has never used high res 1506x1147 devkit fb grabs running at 5 fps for any of their games and try to pass them off as something you see on your tv screen at home :lol:
It must be my special DC with magical powers that allowed me to get those awesome Shenmue shots though :P
Anyway let's see if you can find out which shot(s) are from the demo and which shot(s) are from the cutscene IF ANY since nobody will believe me when I say the that the cutscene uses the exact same 3d model as the head demos :lol:
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/14.jpg
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/12.jpg
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/13.jpg
http://www.itsmyphotos.com/shenmue/images/11.jpg
The Shenhua cinema and face demo use two different models. The proof is in the ears. In the cinema, the curves in the inner part of the ear is just a texture. In the face demo, the ear is fully polygonal. I just checked this a few minutes ago.
As for this Shenmue versus SH3 debate, all I'm going to say is SH3 is using stencil buffered volumetric shadows which require the scene to be rendered in two passes. So even if the Shenmue face demo has as many polygons as a character in SH3, SH3 is still doing more than double the polygons due to multi-pass rendering. In the SH3 trailer, there's even a section where the entire scene is multi-texture procedural textured. Shenmue is pretty much single-textured.
SEGA's PR department has never used high res 1506x1147 devkit fb grabs running at 5 fps for any of their games and try to pass them off as something you see on your tv screen at home
Here's some 1920x1080 and 1280x960 shots from Sega's PR department:
ftp://ftp.accesspr.com/PUBLIC/Sega/Sega_Games/Microsoft_Xbox/Panzer_Dragoon_Orta/
ftp://ftp.accesspr.com/PUBLIC/Sega/Sega_Games/Microsoft_Xbox/ToeJam_and_EarlIII/Screenshots_04_29_02/
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 20:45
I wouldn't consider something on a ftp server mass marketing material :wink:
PC, obviously you have not seen the PDO PR screenshots SEGA released...have you? :oops:
You do realize that most files on the internet are accessible through ftp?
For those who are interested, here is the direct feed SH3 trailer. Reccomended to right click and save as.
http://stream.zdnet.co.jp/gamespot/movies/silent-h3/silent-hill3.wmv
:oops:
marconelly!
25-Sep-2002, 21:02
I wouldn't call walking blobs high poly
They definitely look higher poly than characters in shenmue. :P
SEGA's PR department has never used high res 1506x1147 devkit fb grabs running at 5 fps for any of their games and try to pass them off as something you see on your tv screen at home
...when was the last time you checked some of the screenshots from their dev teams?
I'd suggest starting here:
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/screenindex/0,11104,537421,00.html
And no, it's not an FTP server, it's a Gamespot page that everyone visits when looking for that game.
Laa-Yosh KNOWS what he's talking about and he also knows what I'm talking about too. Also I trust his judgement because I myself am also an artist. It takes a special eye to see beyond the surface. The sad fact is, some people have it, some people don't..there's really no need to explaing further
Oh, please, now you're pulling the good old 'holier than thou' act, after just about every your argument is shot down in flames. Well, for your information, I'm a professional graphics designer and know a 'thing or two' about 3D animation and art in general. Texture art is, of course, one of the things that must be accounted for here, but is by no means the only or even the most prevalent one.
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 21:05
Marketing material is given out. It doesn't require someone to look for it :wink: We're comparing Shenmue anyway so the point is moot unless you consider those AM2 shots high rez :lol:
BTW, Bowie is correct about the textured ear, however the rest of the model has the same detail as seen in the 4 shots I posted. The intro cutscene is rendering a HUGH landscape btw so it's still a very high poly scene.
Bowie, regarding SH3, do you have some kind of proof to backup the info you posted?
Oh, please, now you're pulling the good old 'holier than thou' act, after just about every your argument is shot down in flames. Well, for your information, I'm a professional graphics designer and know a 'thing or two' about 3D animation and art in general. Texture art is, of course, one of the things that must be accounted for here, but is by no means the only or even the most prevalent one.
If you go back and read my original argument, I said the head demos are comparable to the cutscenes in SH3. The poly counts are about the same and the texture resolution is about the same. The MAJOR difference is the lighting and ART. SH3 is going for realism while Shenmue is going for a cartoon look. It's plainly obvious to any person with formal art training. Even the shape of the head demos are cartoonish let alone the bright colors. I've also said the old man in SH3 looks better than the head demos, but not THAT much better. Stripping away the art style doesn't change the number of polys or the resolution of the textures. It does take away the WOW factor. If you can't see beyond the surface then that's your problem :wink:
BTW were you able to tell the difference between the 4 shots I posted BEFORE reading Bowie's post? Probably not :lol:
marconelly!
25-Sep-2002, 21:29
Marketing material is given out. It doesn't require someone to look for it
Pardon me, but if every single web site has marketing material that was given out to them, and if that marketing material consists of very high res antialiased pictures, what is your point again :-?
Perhaps you would like a special Sega courier delivering their marketing material to your door?
The MAJOR difference is the lighting, that's it.
Lighting, shadowing, multitexturing... It's more like you're not looking below the surface.
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 21:41
We were comparing Shenmue not PDO so I should've restricted the PR comments to Shenmue though which doesn't apply anyway :wink:
Regarding shadows and multitexturing, taking away the shadows from the old man scene isn't going to change it's WOW factor so adding it doesn't contribute to it either. So what do you have left? Art style and lighting. I don't see any multitexturing btw. Please point me to the screen shot that proves it to be the case 8)
marc, thats his opinions so no point trying to force a change or anything.
Anyway, just download the direct feed trailer of SH3 people. It looks good. :D :oops:
http://www.finalfantasy-spiritwithin.com/www/images/i16.jpg
I wonder PC, how does this look to you then? Are you gonna be impress with the Aki rendered head?
Out of curiosity; What is the main point the pro-Shenmue camp is trying to prove here?
The aesthetic issue is obviously quite subjective and can be argued on ad infinitum. Technically, though, there is obviously no way the Dreamcast can cope with what's going on in the SH3 trailer, given that the scenes are rendered on a 640*480 framebuffer at 30fps (ofcourse these shots are rendered at higher rez, something that unfortunelately is becoming the norm, but as long as the SH3 engine renders with 2x horizontal interpolation it's Dreamcast image quality anyway).
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 22:07
Yes FFTSW is very impressive indeed on all fronts. I have the DVD and have watched it countless times :lol:
However, I'm also very impressed with other CG animated movies like Shrek, Ants, TS1&2. I don't consider FFTSW technically superior to these movies though. FFTSW does what it was designed to very well and that was to approximate realism in the characters and environments. The other CG movies have their own unique artistic style to them too which I like. The quality of art shouldn't be restricted to realism though. If it was, the art world would be very boring. I like variety..doesn't everyone? 8)
Out of curiosity; What is the main point the pro-Shenmue camp is trying to prove here?
The aesthetic issue is obviously quite subjective and can be argued on ad infinitum. Technically, though, there is obviously no way the Dreamcast can cope with what's going on in the SH3 trailer, given that the scenes are rendered on a 640*480 framebuffer at 30fps (ofcourse these shots are rendered at higher rez, something that unfortunelately is becoming the norm, but as long as the SH3 engine renders with 2x horizontal interpolation it's Dreamcast image quality anyway).
Let me recap for you if I may. Basically my original response to the SH3 shots was that it was unimpressive to ME because after having seen Shenmue over 2 years ago. I further explained that the head demos were of comparable quality (not better) to the SH3 cutscene characters running on a console that was 1/3 the power of PS2. Not only that but the fact that the latest and greatest (SH3) isn't looking that much better in terms of technical achievement. I conceided that the ART style was the main contributing factor that gave SH3 it's edge over Shenmue. My opinion was that SH3 looks realistic mostly because of style which is the same reason Shenmue looks cartoony. :)
marconelly!
25-Sep-2002, 22:22
Basically my original response to the SH3 shots was that it was impressive to ME because after having seen Shenmue over 2 years ago
Whoops, Freudian slip ;)
PC-Engine
25-Sep-2002, 22:25
Basically my original response to the SH3 shots was that it was impressive to ME because after having seen Shenmue over 2 years ago
Whoops, Freudian slip ;)
Now..now let's not start nitpicking :oops: :lol:
Here's the algorithm that SH3 uses for stencil buffered shadows:
http://www.sgi.com/software/opengl/advanced96/node48.html
As you can see, it takes quite a lot of work to do because the CPU has to create the shadow volumes and the scene has to be rendered twice.
As for the procedural texturing I was talking about. Download the trailer that chap posted and watch at 4:00. You can see the walls, the character, and the monster are covered by animated blood.
http://stream.zdnet.co.jp/gamespot/movies/silent-h3/silent-hill3.wmv
marconelly!
25-Sep-2002, 22:39
Bowie, are you sure SH3 doesn't use something else for it's shadows? I'm asking that only because I think that with stencil buffered shadows you cannot get soft shadow edges? Or perhaps I've mixed that with projected shadows?
Blargh, so many shadow algorithms, I wish someone would list them all and explain how they work and their good/bad sides.
marc, both Fafalada and Crazyace say that SH3 is using stencil buffered shadow volumes and that's what it looks like to me too. It's possible to get soft shadowing by rendering the shadow volumes multiple times slightly offset from each other and blending them. I don't know if this is the way that SH3 is doing it though. There's probably other ways. Shadow mapping can also do soft shadows but it requires using the Z-buffer as a texture and I don't know if the PS2 supports that. I know that GC and Xbox do.
The graphical leap that Dreamcast represented have yet to be beaten, that's for certain. It really was the 'MegaDrive' (or PC Engine rather! :D) of the 3D generation, taking the current graphic style to a new level in terms of speed, color richness, definition etc. That said, looking at the DC games that floored you ~2 years ago today is quite disappointing - very much including Shenmue which has aged shockingly bad.. Soul Calibur impresses still, rather artistically than technically I guess.
The real kicks of the new consoles are mainly coming from graphic tricks / cinematic effects that the Dreamcast weren't up to. Silent Hill 3 (and the main topic here, the totally insane ZOE2) being a perfect example with its grain, depth of field, fog, self shadowing etc. I think they are as much a contributor to the overall great look of SH3 as the artwork. And ultimately, SH3 could be done on the Dreamcast without those effects, I'm sure.
marc, both Fafalada and Crazyace say that SH3 is using stencil buffered shadow volumes and that's what it looks like to me too.
Quick question, Does Stencil Buffering involve texture usage? Wouldn't that be an 'application/feature' thats accelerated at 2400Mpixel/sec - ie. It doesn't need a TCU. So, whats the preformance hit if it's using the 8 pipelines that do not have posess texturing ability?
PC-Engine
26-Sep-2002, 00:36
I totally agree about the special effect's ability to add to the overall presentation of a game. I'd also like to reiterate what Laa-Yosh said about the evolution of content creation tools which has gained some significant advances in the last 3 years. I'm pretty confident that if AM2 had the latest tools to work with today that they can definately up the graphic level on Shenmue even further...how far I don't know :o
Hopefully the next generation of consoles will impress me as much as the jump from PSX to DC, but I doubt it since we're already at the point of diminishing returns. :-?
Vince, the first pass when doing shadow volumes is untextured so it does take advantage of the PS2's 2.4 Gpixel/s fillrate. And since the polygons are untextured, the EE can transform them faster than textured polygons. The performance hit is of course less than what it would have been if the PS2 only had 8 pixel units instead of 16.
Look this! :D
http://stream.zdnet.co.jp/gamespot/movies/silent-h3/silent-hill3.wmv :o :o
Crazyace
26-Sep-2002, 22:15
Just spent about 15 minutes playing with the Shenmue passport disc, definitely hasn't aged well... and the intro if anything shows texture aliasing problems much worse than most PS2 games....
The bouncer graphics blow this away ( though I wont say anything about the game itself... )
Well, time to rip the model files from the image and dust of the linux discs...
PC-Engine
27-Sep-2002, 08:39
I think the texture shimmering has to do with mippmapping and that has to do with memory limitations. Also some games used both filtered and unfiltered polys ie HOD2 by choice. The texture shimmering wasn't a fundamental flaw in the architecture as most games didn't have texture shimmering. The shimmering isn't really much worse than those found in GT3 :wink:
BTW just saw that SH3 wmv trailer. From what I can tell the ingame stuff is really taxing the PS2 hardware. Theres slow down when there's only about 2 enemies on screen..unimpressive.
Also the supposed precedural textured blood doesn't look too impressive either. Cinematography for the cutscenes are nice though.
marconelly!
27-Sep-2002, 14:47
The shimmering isn't really much worse than those found in GT3
Uhhh... No. It actually is *much* worse.
BTW just saw that SH3 wmv trailer. From what I can tell the ingame stuff is really taxing the PS2 hardware. Theres slow down when there's only about 2 enemies on screen..unimpressive.
There is absolutely no slowdown in that trailer *whatsoever* Are you starting to imagine things now so you can convince yourself that you are right? I have watched three different encoded versions of that trailer (highres QT, lowres QT and WMV) If there is any kind of slowdown in the WMV one, it's definitely because they used low bandwidth compression so it chugs when the big portion of the video changes quickly.
*Edit* I have watched the video again - What you are attributing to slowdown is actually blended muzzle flares when she shoots from the machine gun. If you watch the other trailers you can see that during that scene screen quickly flickers light/dark and you can better see action moving while the screen is light. Therefore the strobo effect of jittered motion. It actually looks really good.
PC-Engine
27-Sep-2002, 14:48
It slows down when the girl is firing around nostops in circles. I disagree about the shimmering being much worse than GT3.
marconelly!
27-Sep-2002, 14:53
Read my addition to a reply.
Shimmering in Shenmue is one of the worst ever concieved on any platform. I've been playing the game for a while yesterday just so I can have a better impression of it again.
PC-Engine
27-Sep-2002, 15:00
I think the jittered motion assumption is debatable. Is it possible that when there is fast moving action on the screen that the 30 fps may drop lower therefore creating a choppy effect? Even when the girl is running around the aninamation seems to falter a little?
marconelly!
27-Sep-2002, 15:15
I think the jittered motion assumption is debatable.
Hires QT trailer clearly shows what's going on, and it's just what I described. You can also see that same thing in the WMV trailer for the few seconds right before the compression blurred the flashes. You can clearly see the light flickering and illuminating scene for the moment.
Btw, there are three visible enemies in that scene. Third one is killed right at the beginning.
PC-Engine
27-Sep-2002, 17:35
Ownz0red.
Stop trolling man. If you don't have anything productive to say then don't post at all :P
BTW everything that's been said is subjective and speculation anyway, but you probably knew that :lol:
Johnny Awesome
27-Sep-2002, 20:14
Well if it makes you feel better, I agree with most of your opinions on this matter. :)
Laa-Yosh
27-Sep-2002, 22:55
Okay, I've downloaded the quicktime trailer and watched it a few times... it's pretty cool :).
The characters are relatively high poly, I'd say 20-30 thousand triangles. Simple color textures, with transparency for hair; no mutlitexturing (bump, specular or such) is visible. That's really nothing special or innovative; technically the models aren't really different from, say, the DOA3 characters. The texture art is however very nice, but it looks like 8-bit palettized stuff only.
The lighting model is quite impressive though. The shadows are free of any kind of artifacting. It does seem to be working differently than in Doom though; I mean that they are painted in, rather than 'blocking' light as in Carmack's engine. At least I think so ;) There are a few other nice things like the rain on the car's window, too, but such things have been done before (like in MGS2).
So technically speaking, it's not that big of a leap except for the lighting, IMHO. But it still looks damn good, and a lot better than most games.
marconelly!
28-Sep-2002, 01:11
Laa-yosh, my point from the very start was that the lighting model in this game is it's most impressive feature, along with the really good looking characters and well achieved realism. They did such a good job on lighting model that it would turn quite a few heads around even if it wasn't for the other good things about the game's looks. It's something I honestly though impossible on PS2, and I can only imagine how complex and taxing to hardware that thing is.
One question, though - how can you distinguish 8 bit paletized art from 24 bit textures? What if there is simply noo need for more than 256 color in a texture?
Multitextureing definitely exist if nothing, in scenes where you can see animated procedural texures overlayed over walls and stuff. I'm pretty sure developers even confirmed they are doing it that way. Also, aren't specual highlights visible at least in some places (I agree that faces look specular free, though) SH2 had specular mapping in many places so I assume this one will have them too.
Crazyace
28-Sep-2002, 10:19
At the moment, SH3 ( and ZOE2 ) are excellent titles that look would look impressive on PS2, GC, or Xbox.. Konami have really pulled together an impressive game engine.
I still find it difficult to accurately see if a game is using 8 bit textures, it's not like the difference between 8 bit screens and 16/32 as shown in quake1
Hey, If Shenmue had turned up on PS2 instead of DC I would have been as impressed - the Xbox version of Shenmue 2 doesn't impress as much because time, and my expectations have moved on - but there are many Xbox games that are worse, just as there are many games on PS2 worse than SH3, and there will be many games on GC worse than RSq.
I've just the SH3 trailer (and many other Konami games) on some DVD with MPEG2 quality. It is superb, much better than the video I've downloaded. Lighting is awesome.
marconelly!
28-Sep-2002, 16:20
Wazoo, where did you found that DVD?
Wazoo, where did you found that DVD?
in a mag. I do not think, you can find it, unless you are french.
SH3 was there, ZOE2 and Contra as well.
lambchop ss
03-Oct-2002, 05:27
10 mins of some1 PLAYING zoe2 at TGS .... incl an amazing boss fight in the snow:
http://xlns.web.ctonet.it/zoe201.mpg
100megs
holy crap.
pfffft, lambchop, shouldn't you be at the new PlayNOW! on 4BG? :D
iscariot
17-Jan-2003, 10:13
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_18.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_17.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_16.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_15.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_14.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_13.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_12.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_11.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_10.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_9.mov (love that snow)
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_8.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_7.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_6.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_5.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_4.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_3.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_2.mov
http://ps2movies.ign.com/ps2/video/zoe2_0116_1.mov
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/previews/0,10869,2908938,00.html
http://www.playscope.com/fichiers/photos/1573/zoe2_126.jpg
:shock: :shock: :shock:
marconelly!
18-Jan-2003, 07:47
It is just amazing how konami programmers have that special touch that allows them to make amazing looking atmospheric effects. Rain in MGS2, fog in SH2 and now snow in this game are really in class of their own, compared to other games that try to achieve those kinds of effects.
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