View Full Version : Rare to commit corporate suicide in sale to MS
Rare is for the most part a family friendly development house.
Has anyone clued this company into the fact that the xbox user base does not purchase family friendly games?
There wasn't a single family friendly xbox title that sold more than 150K. And no, a dark and adult platformer like Munch's Odessey doesn't count.
This company is suddenly going to re-invent itself and churn out the adult oriented games (sports, fighters and shooters) that the xbox userbase is interested in?
Sales of PD0 on xbox will not be enough to support this development house. If in fact Rare goes to MS, then its pretty much end of story for RareWare. So long RareWare. Nice to know you but, you are committing the stupidest move ever made in the gaming industry since day 0.
The brothers who own this company are clearly tired or out of ideas and all that they see is MS dollar signs. I'm amazed that everyone in the corporation is going along with this deal.
Ozymandis
10-Sep-2002, 17:04
Well, Rare did do Goldeneye and Perfect Dark. Not to mention the dark fighter Killer Instinct.
Maybe it's just Nintendo's insidious influence that has forced them to stay kiddy :D
Maybe it's just Nintendo's insidious influence that has forced them to stay kiddy
So Nintendo bring in the Resident Evil series as exclusive as well as Eternal Darkness and allot more adult orientated (read gory games) and yet they'd be forcing Rare to only make cartoony and none gory games?.. that doesn't make much sense now does it.
Maybe it's just Nintendo's insidious influence that has forced them to stay kiddy
So Nintendo bring in the Resident Evil series as exclusive as well as Eternal Darkness and allot more adult orientated (read gory games) and yet they'd be forcing Rare to only make cartoony and none gory games?.. that doesn't make much sense now does it.
You really are making no sense here. I am talking about the xbox userbase not the GC userbase.
Some adult games sell well on the GC. RE sold 350K and ED sold 150K. Who cares? The xbox userbase is a different market. A different thing. Why would you confuse the two?
The point is that xbox userbase isn't buying family friendly games. That doesn't mean that these games are "cartoony". I'm talking about any type of game that the average person has no problem allowing their children to play. These are usually platformers, adventure games and party games.
Ozymandis
10-Sep-2002, 18:19
Maybe it's just Nintendo's insidious influence that has forced them to stay kiddy
So Nintendo bring in the Resident Evil series as exclusive as well as Eternal Darkness and allot more adult orientated (read gory games) and yet they'd be forcing Rare to only make cartoony and none gory games?.. that doesn't make much sense now does it.
You really are making no sense here. I am talking about the xbox userbase not the GC userbase.
Some adult games sell well on the GC. RE sold 350K and ED sold 150K. Who cares? The xbox userbase is a different market. A different thing. Why would you confuse the two?
The point is that xbox userbase isn't buying family friendly games. That doesn't mean that these games are "cartoony". I'm talking about any type of game that the average person has no problem allowing their children to play. These are usually platformers, adventure games and party games.
Sorry, I was just having a little laugh about your post.
In a nutshell, I think Rare would do just fine on the Xbox. They might have to expand into making some more adult games, but they're considered a top-tier developer by many. I'm sure they can handle it. It's not like they're Nintendo and have NO experience making these sort of games ;)
Anyways, it's always interesting to see fresh content from a developer who has (for whatever reason) been churning out uninspired but quality games for so long, and I'll be following their efforts on Xbox (if this does come true).
Johnny Awesome
10-Sep-2002, 18:31
Hmm... Ken Lobb, Rare... sounds like MS is dismantling Nintendo piece by piece. God help them when Miyamoto retires. :)
Did you ever stop to think that MS is acquiring Rare to expand their userbase? Rare games + $150 price point + solid marketing + parental controls = solid Xbox sales to the family demographic.
Nintendo fans are just bitter. I think most people would trade RE series for Perfect Dark Zero any day. I know I sure would..
BoddoZerg
10-Sep-2002, 19:31
Last time I heard, Shrek was actually doing pretty well for Xbox.
Anyways, we've all heard this before. "Bungie is committing suicide by selling out to MS." You know, Halo sold millions more copies than Bungie's previous game, Oni. (a semi-flop) Wait for them to actually release a game before prophesizing about Rare's MS-induced death.
It's not like they're Nintendo and have NO experience making these sort of games
Nintendo make the most successful adult games around, unless you mean adult games in the eye's of immature boys, basically gory stuff like Res Evil, then no they don't have much experience, but then Silicon Knights is Nintendo first party and they most certainly have experience with more scary gory games.
Hmm... Ken Lobb, Rare... sounds like MS is dismantling Nintendo piece by piece. God help them when Miyamoto retires.
Heh, you just keep dreaming Johnny.
Nintendo fans are just bitter. I think most people would trade RE series for Perfect Dark Zero any day. I know I sure would..
Resident Evil?, what does Resident Evil have to do with Perfect Dark Zero? Also its pretty interesting that someone who says that Goldeneye made them laugh is suddenly looking forward to Perfect Dark, your a hypocrite, you thought nothing of Rare until this rumour came out.
I don't see what Nintendo fans would have to get bitter about, since before GameCube was released we knew that Rare has basically no games lined up for GameCube, so exactly what are we losing? Rare launched themselves into fame with an incredible FPS in Goldeneye, since then they've released some solid games, but to be honest I haven't been particularly interested in those games. I've only played two Rare games, Goldeneye and Perfect Dark. Perfect Dark was a really excellent game in its own right, but it wasn't as good as Goldeneye. So IMO Rare haven't done anything really brilliant since Goldeneye. I haven't expected anything great for GameCube from Rare since the start, Retro, Silicon Knights and Factor Five are all more important to my gaming needs on GameCube then Rare, I'm expecting more from them.
Having said that I'd still like to see Rare stay just incase they can finally come up with another great game that isn't simply a very solid polished game selling mostly on there name and Nintendo's characters.
Ozymandis
10-Sep-2002, 20:01
Nintendo make the most successful adult games around, unless you mean adult games in the eye's of immature boys, basically gory stuff like Res Evil, then no they don't have much experience, but then Silicon Knights is Nintendo first party and they most certainly have experience with more scary gory games.
Ah, you're right Teasy, I'm sorry. Animal Crossing and Pikmin were made with my generation in mind :lol:
How many games has SK shipped? Two in 7 years? Well, it's better than nothing I guess 8)
Ah, you're right Teasy, I'm sorry. Animal Crossing and Pikmin were made with my generation in mind :lol:
No, they are not targeted to immature boys, Teasy said. ;)
Ah, you're right Teasy, I'm sorry. Animal Crossing and Pikmin were made with my generation in mind
As Wazoo said, no Nintendo games are not targetted to immature boys who think that blood and guts makes something mature. Mario ect are made for people who actually like playing games, like having fun, not people who want to play a "cool adult game" and then go to school the next day and brag that there so adult because they played Evil Murder 17 or whatever :)
Of course Nintendo do make some games that I don't think are for mature people, Pokemon being one of them, although I have to admit I haven't actually played Pokemon so maybe I'm wrong?
Of course Nintendo do make some games that I don't think are for mature people, Pokemon being one of them, although I have to admit I haven't actually played Pokemon so maybe I'm wrong?
I never played Pokemon and I even think Smash Brothers is not for me. It seems that for some people Nintendo Cube buyers are supposed to like the same games and follow the same trend. That is not the case.
Ozymandis
10-Sep-2002, 20:45
Yup, I'm an "immature boy" who "wants to play a cool adult game". Of course, I'm also 23 years old :lol:
I guess if you think those sort of games appeals to my age group, that's your opinion. I can't agree though. I just don't think many of my peers are interested anymore in what Nintendo first-party has to offer. None of the people my age that I know have Gamecubes, for example.
Johnny Awesome
10-Sep-2002, 21:01
There's a big difference between thinking that Goldeneye was crap on the N64 and thinking that PD Zero will be good on the Xbox hardware. The main problem with Goldeneye was the crappy hardware it was running on.
Yup, I'm an "immature boy" who "wants to play a cool adult game". Of course, I'm also 23 years old :lol:
I'm 30+. you are the kiddy.
I guess if you think those sort of games appeals to my age group, that's your opinion. I can't agree though. I just don't think many of my peers are interested anymore in what Nintendo first-party has to offer. None of the people my age that I know have Gamecubes, for example.
That is a great poll. very informative.
cybamerc
10-Sep-2002, 21:25
Johnny Awesome:
> The main problem with Goldeneye was the crappy hardware it was
> running on.
You're a moron. How does the hardware have anything to do with "... the slow as molasses gameplay, the poor control and the cheezy bond license."? It's funny how the potential of Rare being bougth by M$ can suddenly make you change the issues you have with the game. Of course, now that Rare may be an M$ first party soon you can't really say things that put its game making skills in a bad light anymore.
What I think is happening at Rare:
The Stamper brothers want to retire. They decide to sell the majority (50+%) of their company to Nintendo, since Nintendo already has a huge piece of Rare. Nintendo asks "what have you done for us lately?" and points th' Stampers to Microsoft.
Nintendo, seeing as how they think they don't need Rare anymore.. sell their 30-40% to MS, making mega-bucks.
Now Rare is MS-exclusive. This is probably th' situation.
Johnny Awesome
10-Sep-2002, 21:31
The issues were two-fold with Goldeneye - the N64, and the N64 controller. Despite how good Rare is, they weren't able to overcome these limitations IMO. For what it's worth, Starfox Adventures and Kameo were the reasons I bought a Gamecube. You can go back to my Cloudchaser.com E3 2001 impressions where I list Kameo as one of the top 5 games of the show, if you need proof. :)
Ozymandis
10-Sep-2002, 22:41
I'm 30+. you are the kiddy.
Uh, o-k. :roll:
Rodéric
10-Sep-2002, 22:51
For your information I'm 24 (arg almost 25) years old and I own a GameCube (and a Dreamcast).
I've :
Star Wars Rogue Leader
Pikmin
Luigi's mansion
Super Smash Bros Melee
I love those games, and even if I think that games cost a bit too much money (on every platform), I'll say they where worth their money.
And I've friends with GameCubes too.
That 'Nintendo makes games for children' idea is ridiculous, never saw something that stupid. (no offence)
Geeforcer
10-Sep-2002, 23:50
I'm 30+. you are the kiddy.
LOL - what a great way to demonstrate that age has nothing to do with maturity.
BTW, "30+"? Do you put "Date/Month/1962+" or "Date/Month/62-72" whenever you have to fill out a form?
linthat22
10-Sep-2002, 23:51
Did I miss something? Since when did systems become age oriented? I thought that if the games were fun, then that's all that mattered.
Logan Leonhart
11-Sep-2002, 00:49
So, I take it that in order to be mature and prove that you´re a gamer you HAVE to love Nintendo? News to me. If someone actually finds Doshin, Cubivore, Pikmin and AC interesting, more power to them, but I just want more from my games.
BTW, I´m not "cool" and I´ll never be, and all I would get for bragging about DMC where I study would be a blank stare (I live in Mexico). So, nope, coolness is not why I enjoy my PS2 the most.
archie4oz
11-Sep-2002, 00:54
Since when did systems become age oriented?
Since people have tried to use age to make a point... :wink:
One thing I'm wondering since people keep mentioning Golden Eye and Perfect Dark, IIRC didn't most of the staff that worked on those titles leave Rare for Free Radical?
One other thing, what's with the whole Pokemon/kiddy thing? Damn when I was at Uni when it came out in Japan, it was all the rave with university and high-school students and didn't really become popular with 'kids' until the anime series came out.
Logan: Nobody has to love anything.
You don't seem to know what you're talking about half the time though. 75% of the time, you post inaccurate assumptions about Nintendo games. You probably don't even know the gameplay details for the games you mentioned 'dere. That's the problem.
Logan Leonhart
11-Sep-2002, 02:07
I´m talking about appeal, and those games just don´t appeal to me, not gameplay details. The mere concept just prevents me from being interested in them.
When I said "I want more from my games" what I meant is that I want a good story, action based on more mature subjects, a compelling atmosphere, if possible a musical score performed by an orchestra, characters I can relate to or that have a certain "attitude" that I like, something more akin to a work of art that delves in darker themes.
I´m just not interested in the concept of Doshin, Cubivore and AC....and I can´t force myself to like them. 100% gameplay just doesn´t do it for me, I demand more than that. And it´s not like Nintendo makes those games with my age-group in mind anyway.
Ozymandis
11-Sep-2002, 03:02
Ingenu, I think it's fine that you're an older Nintendo fan. But I'm sure you don't assume that most Nintendo fans are like yourself, yes?
I'm 30+. you are the kiddy.
LOL - what a great way to demonstrate that age has nothing to do with maturity.
BTW, "30+"? Do you put "Date/Month/1962+" or "Date/Month/62-72" whenever you have to fill out a form?
:lol:
Logan: Your age group theory is another misconception.
Thanks for explaining your video game preferences though. :) You're definitely an RPG fan!
Did I miss something? Since when did systems become age oriented? I thought that if the games were fun, then that's all that mattered.
Nintendo caters to a younger audience than xbox and Ps2. Why is there any debate on this subject? This is like Fact #1 in the console industry.
Fact #2 is that Nintendo's family friendly games can be enjoyed by adults simply because they are such good games.
Back to the subject at hand: Rare's impending implosion at the hands of a possible sale to Microsoft. We all know that family friendly games that are not sports games sell like sh*t on the xbox. On the other hand, the GameCube family friendly market is established and thriving. Luigi's Mansion in the US sold over 700K. Super Monkey Ball sold around 300K. Pikmin sold very well. Sonic sold 500K. StarFox adventures will sell VERY well.
Look at the pathetic xbox. A quality game like Jet Set Radio Future only sold 75K.
If Rare were to stay within the GameCube fold they would be guaranteed to sell games and make money. However, the expansion of the xbox market to include family friendly games, which Rare specializes in, is a large unknown. Its impossible to say if xbox userbase will ever expand beyond its current adult oriented segment.
Clearly the xbox is in a far back 3rd position in both Japan and Europe. Again, this simply ads to risk involved in this gamble for RareWare.
Even if the Stamper Brothers want out of the gaming business, would they throw their company into such a high risk situation? Surely they realize that in a few years after failed games that had no chance of succeeding in the xbox market place, Microsoft would very likely liquidate most of the original studio.
Perhaps, but if I see Battle Toads on Xbox I'm buying it :)
Perhaps, but if I see Battle Toads on Xbox I'm buying it :)
You'll never see it from Rare. They do not have the licence anymore.
Ingenu, I think it's fine that you're an older Nintendo fan. But I'm sure you don't assume that most Nintendo fans are like yourself, yes?
Of course not, but that would be the same mistake that saying that all Nintendo gamers are kids.
BTW, "30+"? Do you put "Date/Month/1962+" or "Date/Month/62-72" whenever you have to fill out a form?
Am I not supposed to do this ?? No surprise I never succeed to buy anything on the net :lol:
I was not thinking I was supposed to be extremely accurate to show that some adults do play Nintendo console despite Johnny does not want to see them.
DemoCoder
11-Sep-2002, 09:19
JSRF was a quality game visually, but I didn't find "collect paint cans, spray walls" very fun. It got monotonous after awhile. And was the plot of the game really "family friendly"?
X-Box owners will buy family oriented titles if they are fun. If someone makes something like SuperMonkeyBall for the x-box, it will probably sell. Fusion Frenzy was "family friendly", but I think everyone can agree that it sucked balls.
Kung Fu Chaos looks to be a super-smash-bros type title. SSB has the advantage of having a name brand and being a sequel, but if KFC is fun, it'll take off, especially if it is playable over XBoxLive. If not, it won't.
I don't think the GC titles sold so much because they were family friendly. I think they sold alot because of brand awareness and because of their quality.
Just because a game is non-violent, doesn't mean people will automagically buy it.
Magnum PI
11-Sep-2002, 09:32
i'm all with wazoo..
i'm 30- :) (about 28.9)
the only current generation console thati would buy is the gamecube.
i don't care about compelling atmosphere, hi-def cut-scenes...
i just want to have fun with challenging games with good gameplay, replay value... i can even play with a monkey in a ball if it's fun..
it's gaming afterall !
for the great story, characters with an attitude, orchestral music etc.. i prefer to watch movies !
i don't like the idea of videogames becoming ersatz of movies..
Yup, I'm an "immature boy" who "wants to play a cool adult game". Of course, I'm also 23 years old
If you think that age makes someone mature then your wrong.
I guess if you think those sort of games appeals to my age group, that's your opinion. I can't agree though. I just don't think many of my peers are interested anymore in what Nintendo first-party has to offer. None of the people my age that I know have Gamecubes, for example.
Ah the old "none of my friends my age have X console so that means nobody my age wants that console". I could then say to you that just about everyone I know that is my age is buying a GameCube, did you never think that maybe these little examples don't really mean anything considering people tend to be friends with similar people? As in a group of friends usually have similar tastes.
There's a big difference between thinking that Goldeneye was crap on the N64 and thinking that PD Zero will be good on the Xbox hardware. The main problem with Goldeneye was the crappy hardware it was running on.
Well you said Goldeneye made you laugh, as I said at the time show me a better looking FPS then Goldeneye in 1997.. if you can't show me something loads better looking then how can you possibly laugh at Goldeneye visuals? Then you say that in fact it was the slow gameplay and poor controls that made you laugh at Goldeneye, firstly again show me a console FPS in 1997 with better controls and any FPS in 1997 with better gameplay, secondly why are your looking forward to Perfect Dark 0 if you thought Goldeneye's gameplay was so bad? Why will its controls and gameplay be so much better? Face it you just didn't want to admit that Goldeneye was a great game, and now that you think Rare may go to XBox suddenly any potential Rare game is something your looking forward too and Goldeneye suddenly isn't so laughable.
So, I take it that in order to be mature and prove that you´re a gamer you HAVE to love Nintendo? News to me.
No, if you don't like some Nintendo games because you just aren't interested in that game that's fine, but if someone won't play a Nintendo game because they think its not cool and for kids, then I think that person will find that they still aren't a very mature person.
Nintendo caters to a younger audience than xbox and Ps2. Why is there any debate on this subject? This is like Fact #1 in the console industry.
PS2 has some of the most simple, most obviously kiddy games around. Most Nintendo games are made so that as many age groups as possible can enjoy them, basically so the game is available to all age groups. Just because some effort it put in to make those games enjoyable for younger people that does not make them made for younger people, because there is also effort put in to make the game enjoyable to older people. I think you'll find that the difference between most of Nintendo's games and a game made specifically for kids is that Nintendo games have a level of maturity that games made specifically for kids don't have.
for the great story, characters with an attitude, orchestral music etc.. i prefer to watch movies !
Yeah that a game is fun is the most important thing. Also while so far Nintendo haven't catered for the sort of game described above on GameCube much (although Eternal Darkness is great example of that and is a Nintendo first party game) those sort of games are catered for on GameCube by developers other then Nintendo. I mean its not as if the only dev who can make games for GameCube is Nintendo.. :)
Johnny Awesome
11-Sep-2002, 13:38
I've stated before: the Xbox hardware (and the Cube for that matter) would be much more capable at doing Perfect Dark Zero than the N64 was at doing Goldeneye in 1997. Console hardware was not capable of reproducing a good FPS experience in 1997.
Once again for the record, I think that Rare did the best they could under the circumstances, but GE failed my litmus test for games. I'm sure that'll love playing Starfox on my Cube, as well as Kameo (wherever it ends up).
Listen Teasy, I'm sorry I dissed your favorite game, but I didn't enjoy Goldeneye. This doesn't mean I think that Rare is crap or that Perfect Dark Zero wouldn't work on more capable hardware with a good controller (Xbox/Cube).
Ozymandis
11-Sep-2002, 14:45
Arguing with Nintendo fans about the target audience of Nintendo games is like pounding nails up your nose. Well, they say a picture is worth a thousand words, so let's play a game-
Which of these games look like they'll appeal to an older audience:
http://cubemedia.ign.com/cube/image/animalcrossing_081602_4.jpg
or this:
http://xboxmedia.ign.com/media/previews/image/maxpayne/bigmax2.jpg
http://cubemedia.ign.com/media/previews/image/luigimansion/luigiyum11.jpg
or this:
http://xboxmedia.ign.com/xbox/image/hunter_032202_13.jpg
http://cubemedia.ign.com/media/space2k1/PM-2.jpg
or this:
http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/gta3/gta3_78.jpg
Why is it so hard for some people to admit the obvious? :(
Not that there's anything wrong with playing games made primarily for children. Hell, I still watch and enjoy Disney movies :D
So once you reach 21, you must have dark themes.. and you must have blood, gore, and sex?
If there's nothing controversial, it's not going to appeal?
I swear, sometimes arguing with you is like pounding nails up my nose. ;)
Ozymandis
11-Sep-2002, 15:37
So once you reach 21, you must have dark themes.. and you must have blood, gore, and sex?
If there's nothing controversial, it's not going to appeal?
I swear, sometimes arguing with you is like pounding nails up my nose. ;)
I'm not telling older gamers what to play. You're just dodging my point, which is that generally, children tend towards lighter fare while adults tend towards darker stories with more adult themes. You see it in Hollywood movies, and the same holds true for video games today. Again, let me say that there's nothing wrong with playing children's games. If that's what you like, then more power to you... but you're the exception rather than the rule.
For the record, I think you can have a mature game without sex and violence. Take a game like Xenogears. It's not overly adult in content, but most kids aren't going to relate to the themes there.
CaptainHowdy
11-Sep-2002, 15:50
the kiddy audience thing is back, and as stupid as ever..
Nintendo fans like diversity, thinking they only like one kind of game
is stupid, if it were so, would goldeneye have sold a single unit?
the kiddy audience thing is back, and as stupid as ever..
Nintendo fans like diversity, thinking they only like one kind of game
is stupid, if it were so, would goldeneye have sold a single unit?
GE was bought in 97-99 by future xbox owners, which wanted to show to Rare how wrong they were to stay with Nintendo
Hey, I prefer mature movies too. ;)
The problem with your generally sound argument is that we play games, not watch movies.
There were no bloody, sexual, or political games before.. and adults played them. Adults played Pac-Man, and Space Invaders.. Donkey Kong, and Defender. These days, when you play something like Donkey Kong.. you're considered in the minority.
Where has this industry gone? The only reason that GTA games got famous is due to their criminal nature. People are shrugging off a gameplay-rich game like Animal Crossing without even playing it. You know my opinion, Ozy.. :)
You can see where I'm coming from, right? I can't help but argue with you, because I'm frankly disgusted at the way people treat light-hearted games today. It's just my nature. I play light-hearted games.. like Mario, Pikmin, and Sonic.. and then I go play some darker games.. such as Max Payne, RTCW, Resident Evil, and GTA3. I never discount a game based on how kiddy/mature it is.. I just play them for the gameplay and soak up the atmosphere/art-style. Graphics, great tunes and sound effects.. those get thrown in for an even better experience.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I just can't see the problem with so-called "child-oriented" games. Sure, you have your easy-as-heck kid fests such as Mickey Mouse and Ronald McDonald.. those things I'm not so interested in.. but to say that a game like Animal Crossing is aimed squarely at kids is bunk! Like the movie Shrek or th' TV show Spongebob Squarepants, the game has something for everybody. Kids, teenagers, adults.. albeit the cute graphical presentation.
If the animals were replaced with "cyber-cops" and the AC village was a "futuristic city" without any change to the gameplay.. would this game still be kiddy? Would it still be entirely unappealing to adults, as many would say? Probably not..
PS: I don't care if I'm still missing your point, I just felt I should express my full opinion on this.. :)
Ozymandis
11-Sep-2002, 16:46
Your viewpoint is more of a personal one that a general argument, just as every other Nintendo fan's in this thread.
I do see where you're coming from. And I even agree to an extent. I mean, I do try to play the sort of games you named. But I'm noticing as I'm getting older that they no longer hold my attention the way they used to. Especially now that (finally!) alternative games are available that actually appeal to my sense of style and action.
It used to be that the only games you could really find where bright and cheerful games. Even the "violent" games were limited by technology to the point where they couldn't really give you a good experience. Not anymore. And I for one love this new gaming scene!!
Edit:
Of course, I'll always love Sonic :D
I agree!
The only difference is that cartoony games still hold my attention. :)
IMO there are 2 sides to the arguments
one side argues that those who plays kiddy looking games as kiddy
and one side argues those who plays violent/T&A games as casual
i think both must make some efforts to recognise the others in a positive way
i mean we all play games for the experience right? wether it have kiddy themes, violence or T&A is irrelevent as long as we have fun
i see lots of ppl who bash violent/T&A games just because they have that as well, i mean having violence/T&A in a game doesn't automatically makes it a gameplay-less game, just as looking like a kiddy title doesn't automatically makes a game only fun to play as a kid
-aneep
RaolinDarksbane
11-Sep-2002, 19:48
There's a big difference between thinking that Goldeneye was crap on the N64 and thinking that PD Zero will be good on the Xbox hardware. The main problem with Goldeneye was the crappy hardware it was running on.
This comment is sooooo flawed. Back then the "crappy hardware" as you deemed it was pretty powerful to RARE. You can do things on the N64 that you can't on the PSX like bilinear filtering, mip-mapping, etc.... You can't compare the N64 back then to the XBOX now.
You also can't compare games like Pikmin and Animal Crossing with Max Payne, they are both completely different game. Games like Pikmin and AC IMHO are more mature than Max Payne simply because those game actually requires you to think. Can you think of an example in Max Payne that requires you to think besides "See Bad Guy, Shoot" or "Hurt badly, Run"???? There are other things besides blood, gore, sex that makes a game mature..... like challenge and the intelligence to play them.
The kids who plays AC at least have to be quite intelligent to play a game like AC that defies genre categorization, it also has tons of text so you know the kid have to be quite proficient in English to play it. Pikmin requires you to be smart enough to know how to be efficient with your Pikmin and time.
Logan Leonhart
11-Sep-2002, 23:47
Oh, come on, that´s just rubbish.
Pikmin is far from being a "mature" game. It´s a very simple RTS game, a "watered down" one if you like. You compare an action game, where thinking is not the main objective in the game, to a simple RTS...sounds fair to me. :roll: Want a mature one? Go play Starcraft now, or westwood´s RTS games.
Also, I don´t think that just because AC has text it means the game is "mature".:roll: The game is clearly aimed at the youngest demographic of gamers out there: art, concept, gameplay, characters, every single bit of the game has the words "made with kids in mind" marked on it. You´re just lying to yourself if you think otherwise and just makes you sound ridiculous.
The fabricated Nfan idea that kids are too stupid and dumb to play their Nintendo games is just rubbish. And it makes me mad, since my little brother is 10 and can play every single kind of game out there if he wants. Heck, he was skilled enough to get an 85% - 90% in SMW when he was 6, all by himself. I was also quite skilled when I was a kid, and so were the gamer friends I had.
It´s quite obvious that Nfans just like to think that, since that allows them to feel more comfortable when playing their games. Somehow, playing games made with kids in mind while avoiding "shallow" games that the only things that make them mature are blood and sex turns them suddenly into "hardcore" and "mature" gamers.
Whatever, but I think they should be honest to themselves. They play games made for kids. So what? So do I once in a while, variety is the spice of life.
Ozymandis
11-Sep-2002, 23:59
I agree with you totally Logan. Well put.
RaolinDarksbane, I think you're stretching it. None of your points are very valid, although Pikmin requires more thinking than Max Payne it's a very watered-down RTS as those sort of games go. "Real-time strategy for children" is how I like to think of it :P
Mark Cicero
12-Sep-2002, 01:20
Back to the subject at hand: Rare's impending implosion at the hands of a possible sale to Microsoft. We all know that family friendly games that are not sports games sell like sh*t on the xbox. On the other hand, the GameCube family friendly market is established and thriving. ... Look at the pathetic xbox. A quality game like Jet Set Radio Future only sold 75K. ... If Rare were to stay within the GameCube fold they would be guaranteed to sell games and make money. However, the expansion of the xbox market to include family friendly games, which Rare specializes in, is a large unknown. Its impossible to say if xbox userbase will ever expand beyond its current adult oriented segment. ...Clearly the xbox is in a far back 3rd position in both Japan and Europe. Again, this simply ads to risk involved in this gamble for RareWare.
Um, now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't trying to shore up a genre you happen to be light in by buying a known maker of quality items in said genre a good thing? The primary reason MS is trying (or maybe has by now) to acquire Rare is to increase the number of games that they have in that area and thus help erase the "well, xbox doesn't make that type of game so I'm not going to make if for them" menality. It's all about gaining inertia. More rare-esque games will come to Xbox if at least a few rare-esque games are actually on the system to begin with. Especially if they're made by (gasp) Rare.
As for the other debate, I believe in genre theory not demographic theory. Certain demographic sections will be drawn toward certain games. The more games you have in a certain genre for a system the more likely you are to have a corresponding age group following, not because you are programming for that group alone but for the genre that they happen to come along in. And its not a 1:1 correlation either because a demographic's interests may change with the generations entering into it.
Back to the subject at hand: Rare's impending implosion at the hands of a possible sale to Microsoft. We all know that family friendly games that are not sports games sell like sh*t on the xbox. On the other hand, the GameCube family friendly market is established and thriving. ... Look at the pathetic xbox. A quality game like Jet Set Radio Future only sold 75K. ... If Rare were to stay within the GameCube fold they would be guaranteed to sell games and make money. However, the expansion of the xbox market to include family friendly games, which Rare specializes in, is a large unknown. Its impossible to say if xbox userbase will ever expand beyond its current adult oriented segment. ...Clearly the xbox is in a far back 3rd position in both Japan and Europe. Again, this simply ads to risk involved in this gamble for RareWare.
Um, now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't trying to shore up a genre you happen to be light in by buying a known maker of quality items in said genre a good thing? The primary reason MS is trying (or maybe has by now) to acquire Rare is to increase the number of games that they have in that area and thus help erase the "well, xbox doesn't make that type of game so I'm not going to make if for them" menality. It's all about gaining inertia. More rare-esque games will come to Xbox if at least a few rare-esque games are actually on the system to begin with. Especially if they're made by (gasp) Rare.
As for the other debate, I believe in genre theory not demographic theory. Certain demographic sections will be drawn toward certain games. The more games you have in a certain genre for a system the more likely you are to have a corresponding age group following, not because you are programming for that group alone but for the genre that they happen to come along in. And its not a 1:1 correlation either because a demographic's interests may change with the generations entering into it.
I never said it isn't potentially the right thing for MS to do by attepting to expand their userbase beyond sports games, FPS and fighters.
My main point is that the risk involved for Rare as a functioning profit generating business is incredibily high. Rule #1 of making profits in the gaming industry is franchises. Sure Rare has a few franchises that they can take with them and they might have the talent to create new franchises, but a large chunk of this company's earnings were due to Nintendo franchises.
When considering:
(1) loss of Nintendo franchises
(2) lack of market in the xbox userbase for family friendly games
The risk involved is HUGE.
The Stampers will get their money, but there is a high chance that they are selling everyone still at RareWare down the river. No wonder so much talent fled that sinking ship.
Damn, BryanB, did you work for Rare? Going to Microsoft is a lot different than going to the slaughterhouse. Bigger backing bucks, in a good company, mean bigger paychecks.
"Look at the pathetic xbox. A quality game like Jet Set Radio Future only sold 75K. "
And nobody calls him a fanboy...(though, being new, I'm not sure if that's a "dirty" word which would be censored)
I have many consoles (though I never really became a rabid gamer before the DC. Why? Because it was one hell of a step up from what was available at the time.) I never bought a PS2, partially because I thought that Sony was screwing me for yet another multitap etc, and because I saw that the DC did better (in my opinion) with PS1 games and BLEEM than PS2 did. That didn't sit right with me. For me to shell out another $400 bucks, it had to be another BIG step up. I have enjoyed a few PS2 games at a friends house, but never anything to make me buy one. That's just me. But to guage a consoles quality by sales like the aforementioned gentleman is to say that NSYNC are Lyrical geniuses because people buy them.
Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Lotus, BMW, Ducati, Bimota MAICO. None of them sell as well as your average dodge, but none can be considered failures. They each perform thier intended tasks better than most of the competition. For someone to regard the Xbox as "pathetic" due to lack of sales when compared to a MUCH (percentage-wise) lower priced and better known brand name(s) only demonstrates to me that they are one of those folks which are led by the media.
Perhaps JSRF would have sold a lot better on the GC. It would probably seen at least ONE commercial, and it's user base seems starved (that's just my opinion, the non-DC/PS2/Xbox titles seem sparse and again "IN MY OPINION" not worth a squirt of piss.) I considered a GC when RE was announced, and then I saw it running. Don't get me wrong, GC is certainly a next gen machine, which is what demonstrated to me just how bad pre-rendered backgrounds are. I lost interest at that point. Then a game-play video of Metroid was on the net, and again I regained my GC woody, but a few of days ago I saw (to be fair, probably an early build) demo vid running at the local EB on the GC, and it came nowhere near exciting.
I wouldn't mind buying one, as soon as they show me something that really pulls my skirt up, so to speak. They haven't yet. I know PS2 has a few "must-play" titles, but the Xbox has turned me into a bit of a graphics whore. I can put that aside, as I did when MOH2 for PS1 came available to me. The Xbox was powered down for weeks. No GC game has had that effect on me.
To a guy who plays games A LOT to kill the off-time on rotating shift, the GC seems filled with a lot of PC party games, and a couple of games which could find thier equivalent on another machine. To say that those who don't dig SSBM/MonkeyBall/Pikmin/whatever are teenage geeks who feel "larger" by playing a game with blood to spare: I watched Pocahontas, but got far more enjoyment from Raging Bull. Yes, we play games, and we watch movies, but it's the story that keeps us there to the end. Maybe even gets us go go through it a second or third time
To those who believe that sales give a measure of quality:
Eat $#!T, 50 Billion flys can't be wrong!
Nice post, and welcome aboard.
Unfotunately, consoles aren't quite like cars (despite me and my BMW Z3box).
Sales fuel company revenues, company revenues fuel (quality) game development, quality games fuel sales.
So thus, a console that lacks in sales ultimately falls prey to subpar software and shorter life spans.
Not something I plunked down a few hundred for.
zurich
Ozymandis
12-Sep-2002, 08:17
Actually Jet Set Radio Future sold over 100K worldwide :D
Oh, come on, that´s just rubbish.
Pikmin is far from being a "mature" game. It´s a very simple RTS game, a "watered down" one if you like. You compare an action game, where thinking is not the main objective in the game, to a simple RTS...sounds fair to me. :roll: Want a mature one? Go play Starcraft now, or westwood´s RTS games.
Do not talk about a game you never touched. It would be made by Square, it would be godlike to you.
Beside, playing Pikmin the hard way (in 9 days) requires more thinking than many games.
RaolinDarksbane
12-Sep-2002, 08:45
Making those comments leads me to believe that you never even touched Pikmin and AC. Pikmin does require thinking, it requires you to think how you would do things like manage your Pikmins. And I doubt there are many 10 year olds who has the patience to play a game like AC and actually takes the time to read the text involved. All the pre-teens I know would have skipped past the text and then ask me how to play the game later.
At least give those games some decent playing before making those lame ass comments. I at least played Max Payne before comparing it. As for comparison, I said challenges and intelligence is also a part of making a game mature, and I gave the reasons why.... I wouldn't even made the comparison in the first place if someone here hadn't done it.
Ozymandis
12-Sep-2002, 08:59
I've played Pikmin. I bought it when it came out, and didn't like it so I returned it. Then I rented it a month ago to give it a second try.
I stand by my "RTS for kids" comment. The game does take thinking, but it's oversimplified compared to other games in the genre. Not to mention it relies too heavily on platformer and puzzle elements.
Basically the game was flawed, and I didn't enjoy it. While the game has its good points, mainly the charming and original presentation, it's another good example of how Nintendo "appeals to everyone" :-?
Nice post, and welcome aboard.
Unfotunately, consoles aren't quite like cars (despite me and my BMW Z3box).
Sales fuel company revenues, company revenues fuel (quality) game development, quality games fuel sales.
So thus, a console that lacks in sales ultimately falls prey to subpar software and shorter life spans.
Not something I plunked down a few hundred for.
zurich
Thank you for the welcome, expected an immediate flame. :D
As much as I'd hate to start my second post with a differing opinion, consoles are much like cars/bikes/ any consumer good, I used cars and bikes because they are the easiest to visualise. Many outside forces affect sales (brand loyalty, performance statistics, consumer opinion, tariffs, etc.), but the one deciding factor in market dominance in any field seems to be public opinion. Europeans make many a whoop-ass car that will never see pavement on this side of the ocean, because thier manufacturers kbow that Americans/Canadians/Mexicans/Columbians etc. will say "Peugeot 205 Ti16, what the hell is that?". How many of your acquintances can pick a Lancia Stratos out of a line-up(assuming that you're from my side of the lake)? MAICO has created perhaps the world's nastiest motocrosser, but few on this side will ever know (750cc 2 stroke!?! F\/<|<!!!).
I would agree with your statement that lack in software sales equals a shorter lifespan if we we discussing a company with less spare cash than MS, but MS has the cash to ride out a bad gen (not that it is, but it has yet to see Xbox live, which is what the console was built for. Consider the Xbox as we have it. It is the LeCar to the R5 turbo. So much more is (seems to be) coming, but so far it's in a not universally appealing package).
I agree wholeheartedly that the games up to now have been for the most part crap. I've bought a lot of Xbox games and kept only a few. Halo will never leave my shelf, and Rallisport, JSRF, Outlaw golf, Sega GT and a couple of others are there to keep it company permanently. A lot of others were good enough for 1 play-through (blood Omen, PGR, Munch etc), but not worth keeping the dust off of after that. Turok was a steaming pile. Everyone said "wait until the 3rd chapter", so I did, then I enjoyed 3 chapters after that and said "screw this." I started using cheats just so I could see if the story got better before I returned it. It never did. I reiterate, a steaming pile.
Morrowind has lost my interest, too slow for my tastes so that goes back next. I have played through every level but the last in Halo at least 40 times, but I'll always keep it for Co-Op (Why the He11 don't more games have this!?!) and Rallisport/Hunter: The Reckoning rules for 4 player, JSRF I keep just because it really is a piece of art that happens to be fun to play. Dead to Rights, Prisoner of War and their ilk I won't waste cash on. PS2 doesn't deserve the name "Ruinstation" due to it's hardware, but it gets it from the Devs who do sweet FA to produce a quality product. I bought Blood Omen because I knew the story would be good, graphics aside. Those graphics look pretty freakin' good compared to DTR and POW.
That's where the problem lies. If DEVs can sell $#!T as gold on the Xbox, then nobody is pressured to improve. If said Devs sell LIKE $#!T on the Xbox, nobody will develop. There is no way that you could convince me that SEGA devs couldn't have made GT look better than a game from some ex-asian porn distributors (Bunkasha)if they tried. I am nowhere near a programmer, but I see that there is a PANT-LOAD more going on in wreckless at a time than in SEGA GT, and it's going on smoother too. SEGA GT (for an example again) has what, 6 cars on a track, with 2D crowds, next to zero going on in the background (2D F'in' trees!!!), and there are sections in Wreckless where you can see 2 way traffic miles in the distance. GT has none of this, none of the polish, none of the speed, and none of the damage.
I love Sega GT, it's the only game I'm playing right now, but I know that somethings missing. As I say, I'm waiting for LIVE, but from what has been shown to me, SEGA devs blew thier wad on the DC like Tarantino did on Pulp Fiction. There seems to be little left of any value. HOTD3? take me off the freakin' rails already, Why can't player 2 drive something while player 1 shoots(Halo spoiled me)? I look forward to the SGT add-ons, Panzer dragoon, but that's it. None of thier games thrill me anymore. I loved Shenmue on DC, it was almost like religion. Shenmue II, i got to the third disk and shut it off. I want to see the end of the story, but have no patience for the slowdown and incessant cut-scenes. I've rambled WAY more than long enough, see you on LIVE when I get there.
Lurker
I've played Pikmin. I bought it when it came out, and didn't like it so I returned it. Then I rented it a month ago to give it a second try.
You have every right to dislike the game, especially if you gave it a try.
I stand by my "RTS for kids" comment. The game does take thinking, but it's oversimplified compared to other games in the genre. Not to mention it relies too heavily on platformer and puzzle elements.
how a game can be aimed for kids and reliying too much on puzzles ??
Basically the game was flawed, and I didn't enjoy it. While the game has its good points, mainly the charming and original presentation, it's another good example of how Nintendo "appeals to everyone" :-?
Since you did not talk on how it was flawed for you, difficult to comment.
Lurker,
Sega GT was awesome. It was very much watered down compared to GT3, but the Xbox controller with its two triggers just made it soooo much fun to play (in the 2 days I rented it, I souped me up a 465hp Lancer Evo 6.5, and eventually passed it up for a 750hp Ford Concept GT). Too bad DiCE didnt license the Rallisport engine to WOW... ;) If you asked me, the game screamed DC code base. There really isnt any excuse for not bumpmapping the track in an Xbox racer...
I can only afford to buy 2 games a month, max. This month goes to Kingdom Hearts without a second thought, and the screaming Gundam f*nboy in me wins out with Federation vs Zeon :)
zurich
JF_Aidan_Pryde
12-Sep-2002, 14:08
I guess when Disney makes films, they don't target the kiddies too. I guess it's all just *family fun*. I guess that's why you'd pick "Snow White" over "Lord of the Rings" anyday when you visit a cinema. I mean, Snow White is just such family fun!
Johnny Awesome
12-Sep-2002, 14:41
Lurker
Your thoughts echo my own. Smilebit is the only Sega developer that is not underachieving right now, with the possible exception of Visual Concepts (given that they have so many platforms to code).
Crazy Taxi 3 was a disgrace. Sega GT 2002 should have had better graphics and more tracks (amazing game though). Shenmue 2 is a lacklustre port with barely any improvements. Sonic Adventure 2 was a quick port (and now their going back to Sonic Adventure 1?). Sega needs to get their act together.
Xbox is great. The addition of Rare will make it even better. MS will spend the money they have to for quality titles on the system. The Xbox is very important to Microsoft's future.
Damn, BryanB, did you work for Rare? Going to Microsoft is a lot different than going to the slaughterhouse. Bigger backing bucks, in a good company, mean bigger paychecks.
"Look at the pathetic xbox. A quality game like Jet Set Radio Future only sold 75K. "
For someone to regard the Xbox as "pathetic" due to lack of sales when compared to a MUCH (percentage-wise) lower priced and better known brand name(s) only demonstrates to me that they are one of those folks which are led by the media.
You must not know anyone who works at Microsoft. Microsoft doesn't pay bigger bucks. On average they pay 1/3 below the industry standard. The only lure to working at MS is job security compared to most of the game industry and stock options. And stock options are no longer an advantage as MS ceased to be a big growth stock about a year ago when PC sales flattended out. There's alot of recent hires at MS who are working for peanuts and have nothing to show for it except for a bunch of stock options that they can't and probably won't ever be able to sell for a profit.
The sales of certain types of games on the xbox are pathetic. The sales of certain types of games on the GC are pathetic. You just wasted a whole bunch of brain cycles attempting to deny this? And no, meaningless analogies to the auto industry is just your brain spinning its wheels going nowhere.
Ozymandis
12-Sep-2002, 15:56
I guess when Disney makes films, they don't target the kiddies too. I guess it's all just *family fun*. I guess that's why you'd pick "Snow White" over "Lord of the Rings" anyday when you visit a cinema. I mean, Snow White is just such family fun!
That's what some people here would have you believe :P
CaptainHowdy
12-Sep-2002, 16:46
actually, Disney is like Nintendo, they make stuff for the kids, but dont forget there are adults out there.. a kid will pick up thier game and love it, and the adults will be able to enjoy it just as much..
think of Toy Story,Shrek, these types of movies best go with Nintendo, just good fun for anyone willing to try them, I saw just as many 20 year olds in Shrek as I did kids...
the argument is old, tired and worthless..
Nintendo has the right to make whatever kind of games they wish, they
do not target one specific audience, they used to let the third partys handle the action, when third parties parted ways with Nintendo, less action games came, so Nintendo is now having to work at getting some news ones in. Nintendo is GOOD at what it does, they just have a lot of work to do to get the diversity back, and so far, its looking good.
marconelly!
12-Sep-2002, 16:51
but I see that there is a PANT-LOAD more going on in wreckless at a time than in SEGA GT, and it's going on smoother too
Just to point out, SGT2002 runs at 60FPS, Wreckless runs at 30 and drops below that every now and then. Thats 2X more polygons per second that needs to be drawn, and two times more effects to calculate in SGT. I don't understand how could you find Wreckless 'smoother'.
Logan Leonhart
12-Sep-2002, 23:25
Pikmin is a prime example of how Nintendo "appeals to everyone", like Ozymandis said. They dumb down a concept, and try to retain an element of depth here and there, but all in all, Nintendo games are made for kids. Why can´t you admit that? Don´t tell me you think they´re made with people over 17 in mind. :lol: :edited just for wazoo: If you can´t see this, or even the focus on child-like elements in Nintendo games, you´re blind:edited just for wazoo:
Besides, I don´t see why you get so worked up over this, it´s not like I´m saying they´re bad. I´m just saying the truth, they´re made for kids....and for Nintendo fans. It´s just that the gameplay is good enough that some older people will probably still like them. It still doesn´t change the fact that they´re made for kids.
Also, movies like Monsters Inc and Toy Story are enjoyable only the first time through. Once you´re past the jokes, the superfluous nature of the movies become VERY apparent. I´d much rather watch Anime or mature movies.
Pikmin is a prime example of how Nintendo appeals to everyone, like Ozymandis said. They dumb down a concept, and try to retain an element of depth here and there, but all in all, Nintendo games are made for kids.
They appeal to everyone or they are made for kids ??
Don´t tell me you think they´re made with people over 17 in mind. :lol:
They are made with gamers in mind.
The Nile isn´t just a river you know?
And the fact is the Nile is not a river, you succeeded to say something right at the last moment. too bad it is not about videogames :lol:
Logan Leonhart
12-Sep-2002, 23:53
Sorry, I forgot the "" in my post. I´ll fix it. Have you a point? Or are you just refusing to see the facts? Come on, I´ll help you: take a deep breath and say "Nintendo maks games for kids and I like them, Nintendo makes games for kids and I like them". See? It wasn´t that bad.
Ozymandis
13-Sep-2002, 00:52
Sorry, I forgot the "" in my post. I´ll fix it. Have you a point? Or are you just refusing to see the facts? Come on, I´ll help you: take a deep breath and say "Nintendo maks games for kids and I like them, Nintendo makes games for kids and I like them". See? It wasn´t that bad.
I'm confused Logan.
Here they are saying on the one hand that "Image doesn't matter, gameplay is everything."
Yet on the other hand they're too ashamed to admit that their favourite Nintendo games are targeted mostly towards young children.
It doesn't really add up, does it :-?
Johnny Awesome
13-Sep-2002, 01:32
It doesn't add up at all. Nintendo makes games primarily for young children. The good thing is that the gameplay is usually good enough to appeal to a wider/older audience. Mario Sunshine is a kids game. It plays well and I like it, but it's still a kids game.
The danger for Nintendo is that gameplay can eventually be replicated. Miyamoto is being copied all the time by other developers. Sooner or later, I believe that MS/Sony will develop winning franchises with Miyamoto-quality gameplay in key Nintendo genres. This will eventually mean that Nintendo will lose their special appeal.
Scenario: Imagine Kameo comes to Xbox and has great gameplay and sells 1 million copies. Maybe Kameo 2 will sell 2 million copies, and so on. Eventually, everyone doesn't see what's so special about Mario. Not special enough to buy hardware with poor 3rd party support.
I realize that Ben will come in and tell me that Mario will always sell, that he's heard it all before, but this time I think it's different. Gameplay is evolving much more slowly now. When this happens, atmosphere, cool factor, and so on tend to take over more. Mario 64 captured people's attention because it was the first properly done 3D adventure game. 3D was the big thing back then, so Mario 64 mattered. 3D is old hat now. I'll be surprised if SMS sells more than 50% as well as M64, even if the Cube sells more hardware.
Nintendo has chosen to ignore the one new innovative technology that might allow Miyamoto to shine through with unheard of gameplay - Online. I'm not confident that Miyamoto can really innovate without using all of the available new technology.
MS acquisition of Rare is a long term play. With hundreds of employees that are well-versed in making kiddy games like Starfox, Rare should be able to help the Xbox break into the younger market. It's pretty obvious that Microsoft is trying to broaden the appeal of Xbox just as they are getting ready to reduce the price and size of the unit next year. They want to cover all the bases:
Strong library (UC, PDO, Splinter Cell, Doom III, Psychonauts, Project Ego, Halo 2, Ninja Gaiden)
Good online strategy (Xbox Live)
Kiddy games (Rare)
Extra features (HD - audio ripping, extendable games)
DVD playback (now free)
2001 was about the hardcore gamers (ex-PC gamers, etc...)
2002 was about getting some interest from Sony fans and Sega fans
2003 will be about the mass market with a $150 price tag
The Nintendo "kiddy" argument is moot.
I've already argued it enough over the past few years, and at this point I'm done.
The danger for Nintendo is that gameplay can eventually be replicated.
Miyamoto is being copied all the time by other developers. Sooner or later, I believe that MS/Sony will develop winning franchises with Miyamoto-quality gameplay in key Nintendo genres. This will eventually mean that Nintendo will lose their special appeal.
They are trying to do this for 20 years.
Scenario: Imagine Kameo comes to Xbox and has great gameplay and sells 1 million copies. Maybe Kameo 2 will sell 2 million copies, and so on. Eventually, everyone doesn't see what's so special about Mario. Not special enough to buy hardware with poor 3rd party support.
Kameo has nothing in common with Mario. Beside, it is just your speculation.
I'll be surprised if SMS sells more than 50% as well as M64, even if the Cube sells more hardware.
at 50% of Mario 64 sales, it would be 2-3 times your best specualtion for Kameo. So at 5-6M, SMS will be a big failure but at 1M, Kameo will be a tremendous success. Talk about being biaised.
Online. I'm not confident that Miyamoto can really innovate without using all of the available new technology.
For what it matters saleswise, who cares ?
but I see that there is a PANT-LOAD more going on in wreckless at a time than in SEGA GT, and it's going on smoother too
Just to point out, SGT2002 runs at 60FPS, Wreckless runs at 30 and drops below that every now and then. Thats 2X more polygons per second that needs to be drawn, and two times more effects to calculate in SGT. I don't understand how could you find Wreckless 'smoother'.
Yes, SGT runs at double the FPS, but Wreckless ha 3D bystanders, traffic lights, damage, REALISTIC physics (wherein, in a car going 100mph, when you hit another car, they move) Again, I am LOVING Sega GT, but there is something amiss when I am piloting a Jaguar limo and happen to bump into a 60's honda with my car stopping like I'm in my Mini hitting a milk truck. Yes, Wreckless was a rushed P.O.S. but it is still a great example of what the Xbox is capable of. Polys/sec, very important, but to give us 2D trees and sprites flashing camera's!?! I feel cheated, I don't know about you.
Just to point out, SGT2002 runs at 60FPS, Wreckless runs at 30 and drops below that every now and then. Thats 2X more polygons per second that needs to be drawn, and two times more effects to calculate in SGT. I don't understand how could you find Wreckless 'smoother'.[/quote]
PAC-Man would run at CRAZY FPS on the Xbox, FPS do not equal polys. I don't think that there is anywhere near a comparison of polys between Wreckless and SGT. Polys/sec is what draws me to console games (aside from not having to F\/<|< with drivers and patches. Yes, Wolfenstein will appear on the Xbox, and I will be disappointed with "Port-$#!T" if it appears with the same poly count. FPS gives the appearance of fluidity, polys give the impression of depth (to me, the untrained eye). Wreckless chopped up here and there, but I challenge you to find a PC(or any)game that seems more lifelike IN PLAY.
Wreckless : Sadly lacking in gameplay, something to shoot for graphically for all other driving games. Try it in "driver" view and then tell me that it could have used more speed.
Johnny Awesome
13-Sep-2002, 13:28
Yeah, the Wreckless engine was pretty incredible.
My point about Mario is that he is on the decline. He'll move some hardware this time around, but because Miyamoto chose to ignore the major hardware innovations of the day when making the game, it won't be considered revolutionary. That's why Mario won't help hardware sales as much this time. I think the days when platform games sell over 2 million units and drive hardware sales are coming to a close, Mario included. Mario will still be successful, but just nothing special.
Case in point: When I play Super Mario Sunshine I think to myself: "This is the best platform game ever made", but it still doesn't really excite me. Something's missing...
BenSkywalker
13-Sep-2002, 16:08
I guess when Disney makes films, they don't target the kiddies too. I guess it's all just *family fun*. I guess that's why you'd pick "Snow White" over "Lord of the Rings" anyday when you visit a cinema. I mean, Snow White is just such family fun!
Baaaad choice for comparison. They had to edit a bunch out of LoTR to get the sub R rating they needed. They removed "mature" content for the sake of making it family entertainment, and the movie still kicked all kinds of ass. What this comparison says, is you are of the firm belief that quality family entertainment with beat quality family entertainment... :roll:
I would certainly take Aladdin(Mario) over NaturalBornKillers(GTA3) any day of the weak. Once you get past the adolescent blood lust and profanity, NBK is a very weak film.
Problem is with this discussion is you have a bunch of kids arguing that Nintendo's games are for younger kids. Want a reality check here people? Most people over age fifty think that all games are for kids and we are all childish for playing them.
I've already used one media example, but what about some more.
How many of the "Greatest Films of All Time" carry an R tag? The Godfather, anything else in the top twenty(not talking gross, talking quality). How many off the best books are too obscene/violent/profane for a kid to read? I enjoy reading a King novel every now and then, and I wouldn't let my kids read it either(not yet, they are still too young). Tolkien's books are superior(would anyone argue that?) and I do let my kids read them.
What do you think was a better movie, StarWars or RamboIII?
The big difference between games and other forms of media is the type of interaction you have with them. With a movie or book your interaction is absorption of the story. In a game, your interaction is the gameplay. Games have reached a point where they are capable of delivering a compelling story, but in all honesty I can count the titles that have done so on one hand(I challenge anyone to list more then five, game based stories that would stand up on their own in traditional media formats).
So what would put a game out of the reach of children?
Content
Difficulty
On the content front we have plenty of RamboIII style games to chose from as examples, blood and guts for the sake of blood and guts. SoF, QuakeXX, GTA3, UT, the list goes on and on. These games don't lose much of anything(excluding GTA3 which is all about senseless violence) if you censor them down and eliminate much of the violent content. In fact, most of the die hard players of these titles eliminate the blood&guts anyway to keep the gameplay, the important part, smoother.
Profanity is still rare in games so isn't a big factor. Nudity is just starting to be breached, and as such is trivial as of right now.
Then we have graphic violence or gore with a point(usually to induce fear) ResidentEvil, Alone in the Dark etc fall under this category. These are games that would have a 'game making' element removed if they were to be toned down for the sake of child suitable content. They simply wouldn't be any good without the gore.
For honest good story driven games that use mature themes the two I think of quickly are ED and Mafia, they would lose a significant amount of their entertainment value by removal of their violent/obscene driven content and would suffer accordingly. That said, the gameplay in either one of them could still be enjoyed stripped of all the unsuitable material, simply for their solid gameplay.
That pretty much sums up content based reasons. Now difficulty also has many sub sections and reasons for being exclusive to younger children.
Game mechanics is the first, and a non factor on consoles. Controllers are simply too limited to make for extremely deep game mechanics in terms of making it unplayable by younger children(HTH would you put a real RTS or flight sim on a console?). Titles such as Civ, C&C and the like fall along these lines.
Gameplay difficulty is pretty much a complete non factor. If anything the title older kids are most likely to call 'kiddie' are far more difficult then the 'my monkey beat it without a problem' games such as MGS2 and GTA3. SMB/SMB2 is likely the most difficult game yet this gen and is firmly planted in what the older kids call the 'kiddie' demographic.
Johnny-
Mario Sunshine is a kids game.
You mean that platformers are kids games. Likely the most childish platformer I have ever seen was CBFD which carried a 'M' rating.
Imagine Kameo comes to Xbox
Kameo is a souped up Pokemon. I've never denied being very interested in the game, but it is nothing remotely like Mario(comparing a RPG to a platformer?).
I realize that Ben will come in and tell me that Mario will always sell, that he's heard it all before, but this time I think it's different.
I've been hearing it since you were a toddler ;)
Gameplay is evolving much more slowly now.
There was roughly a decade between SMB and SMW, you think it is evolving slowly now?
I'll be surprised if SMS sells more than 50% as well as M64
So it will only equal GTA3s sales? That would truly be a crushing blow :) You seriously underestimate just how powerful Mario has always been. He could very well lose 50% of his draw compared to the N64 and it would still be tripple what Halo has moved. Think about that.
Nintendo has chosen to ignore the one new innovative technology that might allow Miyamoto to shine through with unheard of gameplay - Online.
See if you are saying that at the end of Q4 '03. So far, what revolutionary new game have you heard about coming with this new 'innovative technology'?
MS acquisition of Rare is a long term play.
Obviously, and it's a huge score for MS now matter how you look at it. I was getting flamed pretty hard on the Nintendo boards for saying as much(over there I'm a 'rabid XBox fboy', you think we have closed minded platform zealots here sometimes, heh, you should see a few of the posters over there), and even getting some flak from our own posters who prefer Nintendo here(although as tends to be the case they did so with class and intelligence). I call them as I see them, whoever it is good or bad for. Mario will sell, huge.
Colourless
13-Sep-2002, 19:26
There is actually no way I would allow a child to play the original C&C. Arguably the NOD Campaign contains one of the most violent scenes ever seen in a computer game. It involved Kane pointing a gun at Seth's head and then firing. Seth obviously is killed. The big problem is this all seen by the player in a FMV cinematic. It's all rather horrific, and is very much not content suitable for a child.
Johnny Awesome
13-Sep-2002, 20:27
Ben
I think you and I both know that I tend to underestimate Nintendo's pull in the marketplace and I already admitted that Mario would move some hardware, but I don't think it's going to move nearly as much as many people think.
Look at the following:
Average age of console owner - 27
Average age of having children - 23
This means that many people who have kids in the Nintendo demographic play video games and own a console. If you play games at 31 and you buy a console, why not buy an Xbox or a PS2 and just add Rayman 3 and either Blinx or Sly Cooper to your game mix for your kids?
The more and more people remain as gamers, the worse it gets for Nintendo because they have to appeal to 30+ year olds as well as 8 year olds. I'm betting that MS and Sony get better at pleasing 8 year olds quicker than Nintendo gets at pleasing the GTA3/Halo/MGS2 demographic and the older 30+ demographic.
CaptainHowdy
13-Sep-2002, 20:44
you assume the only people who play Nintendo games are kids.
Most 8-13 year olds dont give a rats arse about Zelda or Mario, its the ones who played them as kids who have and love the nostalgia and fun it brings.
a poll taken on IGN boards has shown, that the majority of cube owners are in the 17-25 range, there were none under 12 on the poll, and the 13-17 was the smallest portion.
what you have to see is its not a matter of Maturity(Mario is more mature than GTA3 no matter how you slice it, simple fun vs senseless killing), not that I dont enjoy GTA3, its main audience is the 13-17 year olds who get off on the gansta rapper themes, the 13 year old humor(and they dont see that the game was made to make fun of an American Culture Stereotype) mind you I am not downing the game, but 17-25 year olds are going to be the max I can see in buying this game, very few in the 25-35 group, if you think your mature by 25, your wrong, you will think you are, by the time you get to your late 20's, you will still look back and say, "God, I was an idiot"...
Nintendo Vs XXXX only boils down to taste, with Nintendo, you will get a higher quality, that can not be argued, but you will sacrifice quantity, and miss out on some excellent games.. but that can be said for any console.. thats why noone should be a single console owner...
personally, Nintendos Cheap price, and Must have exclusives are reason enough to make it a second system... I think Xbox can be passed up if you own a PC and a brain to upkeep it, but thats just me.
Johnny Awesome
13-Sep-2002, 21:28
Yeah, it is just you. Which is precisely my point. :)
Casual gamers are what drives large install bases. The number of people who are nostalgic for Mario is relatively small amongst the casual crowd over the age of 30.
Xbox has a higher number of quality games out right now than Gamecube IMO. The Gamecube doesn't even have a decent racing game yet, whereas the Xbox has 3 (and soon 4). Why do you think that GCN is falling behind in the North America by almost 1 million units now, even at the lower price tag? Nintendo is relying on parents again in the US. I'm not sure this strategy is going to work long term...
a poll taken on IGN boards has shown, that the majority of cube owners are in the 17-25 range, there were none under 12 on the poll, and the 13-17 was the smallest portion.
I would be 12, My mother wouldn't let me spend my time on the net, not even talking about forums (add the fact that the ign forums are far from polite and not free). the internet is not the world.
archie4oz
13-Sep-2002, 21:33
Nintendo has chosen to ignore the one new innovative technology that might allow Miyamoto to shine through with unheard of gameplay - Online. I'm not confident that Miyamoto can really innovate without using all of the available new technology.
Well the system is still capable of it (I even have the BBA for it), Nintendo simply hasn't taken a solid stance on Online gameplay. In a way I don't blame them, as Online play's biggest strength is also it's biggest weakness; people.
Besides I think you're also forgetting about the gameplay possibilities of the AGB-GCN connectivity.
[
If you play games at 31 and you buy a console, why not buy an Xbox or a PS2 and just add Rayman 3 and either Blinx or Sly Cooper to your game mix for your kids?
when you'll get older and get some kids, you'll add one more thing to your reasoning. You do not want your kids to play some shitty games. It is called education. Since your examples are about platform games, why would I refuse to let my kids play the best of its genre, Mario ?
Johnny Awesome
14-Sep-2002, 02:23
Rayman 3, Blinx, and Sly Cooper will be good enough. Same goes for Tork, Psychonauts, Ratchet & Clank, possibly Vexx and even Dr. Muto. Is it worth suffering through sparse releases and lack of games just to play Mario instead of Rayman 3? Probably not. I bought my Gamecube primarily for ED and Metroid Prime. Nintendo would be wise to keep going in this direction...
Whoa..I'd like a link to where the Xbox is selling (or has sold) a million more units than the Gamecube in the US. The last numbers I saw one said Xb over GC by 200,000- 250,000 units with the GCN tightening it up some at late. On a global basis the GC is a million ahead of the XB..is that what you meant to say?
Oh and whoever said SMS is more mature than GTA3, I agree. Like most everyone else my age (in thier 30s and who owns SMS) does. But I'm sure a few pimple faced MTV 14 year olds would not agree.
Whoa..I'd like a link to where the Xbox is selling (or has sold) a million more units than the Gamecube in the US. The last numbers I saw one said Xb over GC by 200,000- 250,000 units with the GCN tightening it up some at late. On a global basis the GC is a million ahead of the XB..is that what you meant to say?
Oh and whoever said SMS is more mature than GTA3, I agree. Like most everyone else my age (in thier 30s and who owns SMS) does. But I'm sure a few pimple faced MTV 14 year olds would not agree.
Yeah he dreamed that one up. The last numbers I saw said that Xbox is leading the GC in the US by around 3 to 4 hundred thousand. The xbox sold more during the holidays and it had a couple good months following its price cut.
Just from memory take the last two months in the US:
July:
Xbox 158,000
GC 143,000
June:
XBox 250,00
GC 220,000
I think GameCube leads xbox by around 1.5 million in Japan. And by around 500,000 in the EU.
It will be interesting to see how quickly the 3rd party game developer tap goes off for the xbox in Japan. Its really just a matter of how much MS wants to bankroll the xbox. Also if they are paying the 3rd parties enough to cover the losses that they are incurring on games that barely sell anything.
StefanS
14-Sep-2002, 06:26
Rare employees comment on this issue:
"Well, to be honest, you could say I'm pretty bloody put about by the whole damn thing. You know, a few of us knew something was coming for quite a while but still; you learn the ins and outs of a certain system, it's quite technical, and then you suddenly thrust onto a new one, with a half-finished game in your hand. Not my idea of fun, personally."
"Well we're not really supposed to talk about it yet - if ever....but the short of it is that there is an extremely gray area. It's not straight forward yet. Nintendo is trying to keep most of the copyrights. In my opinion that's shit, because we made the games. That's not how it works though. Shame for Diddy and those games though. Won't quite be the same, you know?" "I'd probably get in a bit of trouble around here for saying this but I don't really mind. Sure it'll be a pain in the arse to make the switch, but I've been here for 10 years now. Change is always good. Maybe even for RareNet! ha. ha."
"From what I have been reading on your site and others, a lot of people seem to think we were obliged to Nintendo and vice versa. Honestly, its fun to read some of the things... dissenters they all yell! It's all business mate, and I can tell you that while a good half of the guys here are a bit upset, just as many look forward to working with the new system. Nothing will change with the quality. I do feel a bit bad for anyone who bought the nintendo box though."
"I'm glad to be out, really. I wish them all the best but I really enjoy programming for the 'cube."
http://www.rarenet.com/rareonrare.shtml
Rayman 3, Blinx, and Sly Cooper will be good enough. Same goes for Tork, Psychonauts, Ratchet & Clank, possibly Vexx and even Dr. Muto. Is it worth suffering through sparse releases and lack of games just to play Mario instead of Rayman 3? Probably not. I bought my Gamecube primarily for ED and Metroid Prime. Nintendo would be wise to keep going in this direction...
Wow, great parent your going to make :roll:. Gonna have to agree with Wazoo on this one. I mean, your whole attitude of "Fuck what my kids would like, I'm going to be a selfish ass and tell them tough" just reaks of immaturity.
Besides, it's a bill and a half - big deal. If they want it, parents will buy it for them. Some actually care about others > themselves.
Oh and whoever said SMS is more mature than GTA3, I agree. Like most everyone else my age (in thier 30s and who owns SMS) does. But I'm sure a few pimple faced MTV 14 year olds would not agree.
I won't say SMS is less mature, just diffrent. In sheer gameplay dynamics, it's perhaps more advanced - but in topic and theme it's clearly not 'more mature'.
Theirs this odd grey area where people trying to act older and more mature than they really are return to 'clean' and 'pure' things - things that are familiar to children who need these basic and brokedown ideals - and use them as a proclaimiation that they've advanced and no longer need the 'coolness' or 'fringe topics' that other games have. I think this is bullshit... who doesn't like an off-the-wall game or topic? Sopranoes for example, or The Shield are huge TV shows with similar ideals - target demographics in the 20's and 30's.
So, I take offense to the MTV, 14 year old pimple-faced comment - as the worlds changing. Not only are you older and trying to act mature, but so are they. Keeping with the MTV comment, They're now no longer drooling at Britney, but instead wishing they had the talent of a Michelle Branch or Vanessa Carlton. Look at the shifting in clothing sales and styles towards a more mature attire from a place like abercrombie or structure. Similarly, the same people are now looking at more mature games to play - GTA caters to these, where as SMS doesn't. The people who were playing Mario five years ago have now moved on and want something more mature, see the trend?
Quite frankly, I know of two people with GC's - ones a nostaglic guy just like you (doersn't have SMS yet) and the other is 8 and does. Not drawing conclusions, just personal experiences.
en you'll get older and get some kids, you'll add one more thing to your reasoning. You do not want your kids to play some shitty games. It is called education. Since your examples are about platform games, why would I refuse to let my kids play the best of its genre, Mario ?
I'm sorry, but this deserves a post. 'Education'? Are you serious? Who gives a rats ass if what they play is 'shitty'? They're playing a game - hopefully not ritually - and for a short period of time.
You recieve an education away from the game console doing that old-fashioned thing called reading, which promotes thought, stimulation, and insite into a wide range of ideals and subject matters. Teach them early and make them read frequently. You recieve an education at school, away from the console where they can study for extended period and balance school and socials. You recieve an education in the real world.
The idea is to Live in your world, Play in ours because they're world is a place to do just that, and only that - play. The sheer fact that you consider gaming a form of education enrages me. If anything, video gaming is the anti-education as it can be addictive to kids and keep them away from the books - where their asses belong.
SMS a form of education - this boards beginning to scare me
The people who were playing Mario five years ago have now moved on and want something more mature, see the trend?
Ummm I was playing Mario 5 years ago. I was playing Mario 15 years ago as well. Your point is wrong. Most (well alot)of ppl who played Mario 5 years ago will be owned by SMS. At least the ppl who have stuck to games and are somewhat hardcore gamers will be smoking the crack that is Super Mariouana Sunshine. Dont give me this "now they are playing GTA3 cause they are mature" crap.
GTA3 caters to the easily impressionable MTV crowd yes. GTA3 is mindless violence (throwing a molatie cocktail into a crowd of people). GTA3 is waaay overrrated. GTA3 is slapstick gaming imo. GTA3 caters to the horny little teenagers that are watching MTV. Teens are bandwaggoners..you can attribute this to GTA3 success. GTA3 is kewl dude! Look they can play it all they want. It still IMO makes them more immature than ever. GTA3 is an immature game peroid. I'm not saying that cause I'm a 'sqeaky clean' 32 year old adult. I'm saying that cause I have lived enuf to have a better grasp of what is mature or what is immature moreso than a little pimple face punk 14 year old (the main audience GTA3 is being played by). One day when you've grown up an have had some kids of you own and are paying the bills you'll have a better understanding of what constitutes 'mature' or not.
They're now no longer drooling at Britney, but instead wishing they had the talent of a Michelle Branch or Vanessa Carlton.
uhh yeah right :roll:
They're now no longer drooling at Britney, but instead wishing they had the talent of a Michelle Branch or Vanessa Carlton.
uhh yeah right :roll:
Wow, and your going to lecture me on contemporary culture? Get out and look at the trends and styles.
Michelle Branch, Avril Lavigne, and Vanesse Carlton are billed and sold as the Anti-Britney's (especially Avril) - and they're massacuring her.
Hell, watch MTV before you talk; even they stated that their target demographics are maturing and this is why someone like Avril is ripping up the charts when 5 years ago she would have been overlooked.
Your so outta touch it's not even funny. Ever venture into the sunlight?
Ummm I was playing Mario 5 years ago. I was playing Mario 15 years ago as well. Your point is wrong.
No, your just not normal. For better or worse - your not.
Most (well alot)of ppl who played Mario 5 years ago will be owned by SMS. At least the ppl who have stuck to games and are somewhat hardcore gamers will be smoking the crack that is Super Mariouana Sunshine.
Ok, think what you want - doesn't mean your right.
GTA3 caters to the easily impressionable MTV crowd yes. GTA3 is mindless violence (throwing a molatie cocktail into a crowd of people). GTA3 is waaay overrrated. GTA3 is slapstick gaming imo. GTA3 caters to the horny little teenagers that are watching MTV. Teens are bandwaggoners..you can attribute this to GTA3 success. GTA3 is kewl dude! Look they can play it all they want. It still IMO makes them more immature than ever. GTA3 is an immature game peroid.
Right, I love how people can generalize anything without proof. Explain to me how so many 14 year olds can buy GTA3...
I'm not saying that cause I'm a 'sqeaky clean' 32 year old adult. I'm saying that cause I have lived enuf to have a better grasp of what is mature or what is immature moreso than a little pimple face punk 14 year old (the main audience GTA3 is being played by). One day when you've grown up an have had some kids of you own and are paying the bills you'll have a better understanding of what constitutes 'mature' or not.
Ok, and I guess it's the pimple-faced 14 year olds that make people like Dennis Leary, Chris Rock, or the ultimate mother-f'er, Andrew Dice Clay, such huge stars.
Thats right, because I guess the rest of us in our 20's haven't reached your level of maturity - as neither have the people in their 40's and 50's who go. Thats it... keep thinking it's everyone but you...
BTW - 'Kewl' is only funny outta Kristoff's mouth - I'm sorry
Hell, watch MTV before you talk; even they stated that their target demographics are maturing and this is why someone like Avril is ripping up the charts when 5 years ago she would have been overlooked.
Not thanks. I'd rather watch the 24 Underware Outlet Channel. It's about as interesting and actually less repetitive. :lol: About MTV's 'target demographic' i/m sure it's maturing which is why alot of them are not watching it anymore (VH1).
Quote:
GTA3 caters to the easily impressionable MTV crowd yes. GTA3 is mindless violence (throwing a molatie cocktail into a crowd of people). GTA3 is waaay overrrated. GTA3 is slapstick gaming imo. GTA3 caters to the horny little teenagers that are watching MTV. Teens are bandwaggoners..you can attribute this to GTA3 success. GTA3 is kewl dude! Look they can play it all they want. It still IMO makes them more immature than ever. GTA3 is an immature game peroid.
Right, I love how people can generalize anything without proof. Explain to me how so many 14 year olds can buy GTA3...
Yeah just like people generalize about Mario being a kids game. And yes 14 year olds are playing GTA3 in droves. How they're buying it is not my concern nor care. That's fine if they want to pretend they are mature and doing the 'cool' thing. To them it is. Whatever. If they think that then fine. But they (the 14 year old example) have'nt a shred of credability saying SMS is actually 'less' mature. In thier inexperienced eyes it may be. But in many an adult's eye THEY are the ones who are actually immature.
Look I agree with your comments on what Johnny Awsome and Wazoo were talking about. We are not as far off ( in disagreement) as you are acting here.
Thats right, because I guess the rest of us in our 20's haven't reached your level of maturity - as neither have the people in their 40's and 50's who go. Thats it... keep thinking it's everyone but you...
I'm not saying that necessarily. But I agree that people who are 10 to 15 years older than me are probably more mature in several ways. Just like I'm alot more mature than people who are 15 to 20. Using the 'me playing Mario 15 years ago example', I'm not ashamed of playing Mario. I dont look back and say "damn I was sooo immature playing that game." But I can guarantee you that about 10 or 15 years from now there'll be alot of 20, 25 and 30 year olds who look back and think about how immature GTA3 really was. Oh it was THE cool thing back then but looking back it was so silly trying to be hip. Hell I look back just 5 years ago and some of the things I said or did was so stupid. As someone posted earlier. There were just as many 20 to 35 year olds watching Shrek and Monsters Inc as there were little kids. Just like there were as many or more 25 to 35 year olds buying SMS. Again it's fine if you genuinely like GTA3. But I dont need ANY kid telling me that a game like SMS is 'immature' or just for kids. Same goes for SMB2. It's an amazing game btw.
CaptainHowdy
14-Sep-2002, 23:04
Xbox has a higher number of quality games out right now than Gamecube IMO.
that is the funniest thing I have heard in a LONG time, unless you are counting maybe owning multiple copies of Halo..
I think the review scores of all these supposed AAA titles have spoken for themselves
(Dead to Rights scores averaging 6 to 7/10,
Buffy averaging the same, Bruce Lees beautiful 3/10...it has not really had any quality titles since Halo and Rallisport(and Rallisport is subject to taste, but since I like it, I will give it the go).
GC has had quite a nice run of games scoring between 8-10...
anything under that is mediocre to ok....not quality.
Johnny Awesome
15-Sep-2002, 01:56
The top 5 Xbox games received better reviews and hardcore mags like Edge magazine than the Gamecube games have.
It's funny that you list the likes of Buffy (which is good) and DTR as big Xbox titles and ignore amazing games like JSRF, GUNVALKYRIE, PGR, Sega GT 2002 and Amped.
On the issue of Mario: I find it hilarious that people would call someone a bad parent for giving their kid Blinx (assuming it lives up to expectations) instead of Mario Sunshine, since both games are AAA quality titles. Any kid that complains he's getting Blinx instead of Mario is a spoiled brat as far as I'm concerned. If he were to specifically ask for SMS, I would probably change my mind, but that wasn't my original point.
Vince, I find it hard to believe that you aren't a selfish person yourself, given the way you behave towards others on this board. Stop being such a rude ass.
CaptainHowdy
15-Sep-2002, 02:33
I am not going to go by one magazing, I go with gamerankings for a broader appeal.
lets check these quality titles
Gunvalkrie-
Gamespot-62/100
gamepro- 40/100
gamers.com-50/100
electric playground-60/100
Amped
Gamespot- 67/100
Games Domain 70/100
gamepro - 80/100
None of them score anything stellar, and most are just run of the mill games you can find 1000 better clones of on PS2. JSRF- not my bag...terrible game IMO.
and I love how you say Blinx is AAA, when its not out yet, wait for the release before we jump the gun, so far every raved over game on the system has disapointed..
nonamer
15-Sep-2002, 03:18
I am not going to go by one magazing, I go with gamerankings for a broader appeal.
lets check these quality titles
Gunvalkrie-
Gamespot-62/100
gamepro- 40/100
gamers.com-50/100
electric playground-60/100
Amped
Gamespot- 67/100
Games Domain 70/100
gamepro - 80/100
None of them score anything stellar, and most are just run of the mill games you can find 1000 better clones of on PS2. JSRF- not my bag...terrible game IMO.
Actually, according to gamerankings.com:
GUNVALKYRIE: 74.3%
AMPED: 81.0%
JSRF: 87.7%
PGR: 85.8%
Sega GT 2002: 83.3%
DTR: 76.0%
CaptainHowdy
15-Sep-2002, 03:27
thats an average, but when you have sites like
Xbox.ign.com that would give a high score to a turd
if it had the XBox logo on it, that brings it up a tad..
the fact that this many negatives exist from highly
reputable sites, I think that says it all, find a Mario Score that low
an Eternal Darkness, SSB:M, Rogue Leader, RE, Pikmin,
hell even a Luigis mansion... not as easy..
nonamer
15-Sep-2002, 03:50
thats an average, but when you have sites like
Xbox.ign.com that would give a high score to a turd
if it had the XBox logo on it, that brings it up a tad..
the fact that this many negatives exist from highly
reputable sites, I think that says it all, find a Mario Score that low
an Eternal Darkness, SSB:M, Rogue Leader, RE, Pikmin,
hell even a Luigis mansion... not as easy..
Not really. There are shitty scores from reputable sites of the games mentioned above too. Go to gamerankings.com again. They have pretty much every score ever given stashed somewhere. Also, you're comparing the best of the GC to the better-than-average but not best of the Xbox. If you were to add in games like Halo or Morrowind, you'll see that Xbox and GC aren't that far apart in terms of scores. I guess it's personal preference mainly.
I'm sorry, but this deserves a post. 'Education'? Are you serious? Who gives a rats ass if what they play is 'shitty'? They're playing a game - hopefully not ritually - and for a short period of time.
ok; the word was bad (I tried to find in english a short word for what I meant). I mean, I - and some parent would not agree, since they do not care about what their kids do/see/learn/etc -, so I think that videogames is like every hobby, you have bad programs and good programs. And in the same way, I would not let my kids see what I consider bad TV programs, or bad movies (bad TV or bad movies are much easier to define than bad games), I would try to make them understand what I consider good games. I that respect, it is not completely disconnected to what we call education, which is trying to educate your kids and make them understand what is good or bad in order to educate their tastes. so yes, it is not education, the word was out of place but it is practically what you do with your kids all the time.
Rayman 3, Blinx, and Sly Cooper will be good enough.
First, as you said yourself, if they ask SMS, they'll get it. Just try to give anything else than Pokemon to a 10 years old ... Second, if I already own a xbox and no GC, maybe I'll get one of those game, provided it is good (I think Sly will be). In the case I do not own a console, I'll go with the best choice for my kids, and this is the GC. As a parent, I'm never happy with something "good enough". I just want the best for my kids.
CaptainHowdy
15-Sep-2002, 22:54
and to follow the same stupid logic..
how about...
"Why Get Halo, when Metroid Prime is "Good Enough"
"Why get Buffy when Eternal Darkness is...well, actually, it kicks the crap out of Buffy"
"Why Get Bruce Lee when, you can play with Kitty litter for free"
Johnny Awesome
16-Sep-2002, 01:16
Well you see, if Metroid Prime comes out and is 9/10ths the game that Halo is I would actually agree with you. Why get an Xbox if you can get a Gamecube with a game that is 9/10ths as good and a bunch of other exclusive stuff that you want.
The catch with what I'm saying is that until now there hasn't been a platformer that is 9/10ths as good as Mario64, so obviously if you wanted the best platformer in the 32bit era you would need an N64. I think this is going to change this generation, although Mario Sunshine is certainly the best 3D platformer available right now.
I don't think Metroid Prime will provide the same experience Halo does anyway. Halo is about Co-op and squad-type FPS gameplay. Metroid Prime is more of an adventure game with good FPS and 3rd person mechanics. I look forward to it, but it isn't the same type of game really.
uhh i remember when i bring up gamerankings and that was was quickly shot down as irrelevent as one taste in games varies from another (which i agree now)
but still if u want to use gamerankings, at least point out how many got 90%+, 80&+, 70%+ , etc etc on each platforms
we'll get a clearer picture that way which platform by your reasoning have more excellent games(90+), more above avg(70-89), more avg(50-69), more crappy games(less than 50) than the other
-aneep-
iscariot
23-Sep-2002, 05:54
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/news/0,10870,2881208,00.html
Mr. Lobb sounds giddy :D
[quote="Johnny Awesome"]Well you see, if Metroid Prime comes out and is 9/10ths the game that Halo is I would actually agree with you. Why get an Xbox if you can get a Gamecube with a game that is 9/10ths as good and a bunch of other exclusive stuff that you want.
[quote]
If you are into FPS, you should get an xbox. That is really true.
RaolinDarksbane
24-Sep-2002, 21:20
If you are into FPS, you should get an xbox. That is really true.
That's not really true anymore since the GC/PS2 is getting almost the same about of FPS. Turok, the Bond games, Timesplitter, etc... are all multiplatforms and each consoles have FPS(or FPA....) being developed exclusively on their respective consoles..
I can't play FPSs on a console without my analog triggers, simple as that!
zurich
If you are into FPS, you should get an xbox. That is really true.
That's not really true anymore since the GC/PS2 is getting almost the same about of FPS. Turok, the Bond games, Timesplitter, etc... are all multiplatforms and each consoles have FPS(or FPA....) being developed exclusively on their respective consoles..
yeah, but Halo is only available on xbox. i repeat what I said about Mario. If you like a genre, go with the best.
JF_Aidan_Pryde
25-Sep-2002, 15:43
Some people just don't get it or what?
It's very simple:
Disney/Nintendo's content *may* serve the adult market but that is NOT their TARGET.
It's order of serving your markets people!(Only talking to some of you):
"Kids, but as a broadener, we'll make it adult accessable too"
NOT:
"Adult, then kids." or "Designed from the beginning to be played by 5 - 95"
Disney/Nintendo's content *may* serve the adult market but that is NOT their TARGET.
So Eternal Darkness wasn't aimed at adults?
Yeah most of Nintendo's games are not targeted specifically at adults. Unfortunately people like you do not realise/don't want to realise that Nintendo do not target any one specific age group with most of there games. There are exceptions, like Pokemon (which I believe it aimed specifically at children) and Eternal Darkness (which is aimed specifically at adults). But for games like Mario, they are not aimed at any one age group. If they targetted kids they wouldn't bother making Mario, they'd simply make a simpler more mindless game like Crash Bandicoot over and over again. They are targetting games like Mario at people they know love Mario, (which IMO includes more 16 to 30 year olds then 5-15 year olds).. why is that so hard for some narrow minded people to grasp?
vBulletin® v3.8.6, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.