How different will the Revolution GPU design from Xenon?

[Ooh-videogames]

How will this affect the differences in performance?

And what features would you keep from the Flipper and NV2A?

I've been wondering if Nintendo will have ATI build on the Flipper strengths instead of adapting PC card tech in its entirety.

[london-boy]

Does anyone know anything about Revolution? For all we know, it could be MS's new console.... JUST TEASING... :twisted:

[Teasy]

We don't even know about all the hardware in DS yet, never mind Revolution :)

[StefanS]

At the moment we know zero about Revolution, except that it has a somewhat new feature which we know, you guessed it, zero about.

Anyway - I hope this doesn't derail this thread too much - I have been developing a strong gut feeling that Nintendo will launch its console last in the next-gen race as nothing has been popping up about Revolution...

[kyetech]

Does anyone know anything about Revolution? For all we know, it could be MS's new console.... JUST TEASING... :twisted:

you stole that idea off some weird dude, that proposed that idea. Plus he got flamed... :lol: :idea:

[V3]

All we know about revolution, is that it will connect directly to your PC monitor. Maybe it'll come with other assorted softwares that normally associated with PC. Maybe they want to familiarise kids with Nintendo OS. :D

Anyway, Dave has been hinting left and right about Xbox 2, but he is awfully quite about Revolution.

So I wonder if it will have unified shaders hardware or not :?:

[london-boy]

Does anyone know anything about Revolution? For all we know, it could be MS's new console.... JUST TEASING... :twisted:

you stole that idea off some weird dude, that proposed that idea. Plus he got flamed... :lol: :idea:

Errr yeah, it was a reference to that stupid thread in fact... I believe it was Johnny Awesome's thread...

[Johnny Awesome]

Just wanted to get some people thinking of the possibilities. :)

[see colon]

We don't even know about all the hardware in DS yet, never mind Revolution

what are we really missing, hardware knowlage wise, from the ds?
http://hardware.gamespot.com/Nintendo-DS-11722-S-4-6

[GwymWeepa]

I hope hooking up to a monitor may mean 1600x1200 resolutions standard *prays*

[Guden Oden]

I wouldn't mind a nextbox-compatible "revolution", but as Ninty's been dissing nextbox quite heavily so that won't happen now, and their general unwillingness to hint at anything they're doing and reluctance to go for anything high-performing makes me think the so-called "revolution" will be more like "disappointment", or even possibly "stupid" actually.

It's my guess and fear that "revolution" is going to be something rather half-assed in comparison to nextbox, and especially PS3. They will get further marginalized and lose even more marketshare. Bleh!

[Evil_Cloud]

I wouldn't mind a nextbox-compatible "revolution", but as Ninty's been dissing nextbox quite heavily so that won't happen now, and their general unwillingness to hint at anything they're doing and reluctance to go for anything high-performing makes me think the so-called "revolution" will be more like "disappointment", or even possibly "stupid" actually.

It's my guess and fear that "revolution" is going to be something rather half-assed in comparison to nextbox, and especially PS3. They will get further marginalized and lose even more marketshare. Bleh!

Reluctance?

Iwata clearly said they are not neglecting the technological capabilities of Revolution (on par with Xenon and PlayStation 3), but that they feel they need to innovate more.

[kyetech]

Does anyone know anything about Revolution? For all we know, it could be MS's new console.... JUST TEASING... :twisted:

you stole that idea off some weird dude, that proposed that idea. Plus he got flamed... :lol: :idea:

Errr yeah, it was a reference to that stupid thread in fact... I believe it was Johnny Awesome's thread...

you obviously wanted a slice of johnny's pie.... you were obviously jelous that he came up with it and you didnt... you were desperately hoping that no one would notice, so you could claim it was your idea..... trying to steal his limelight.

hahahahahahaha.

mmwwwaaa hahahahahaha. :twisted:
.
.
.
.
erm yeah..... right ! :lol:

[Megadrive1988]

How different will the Revolution GPU design from Xenon?


How will this affect the differences in performance?

And what features would you keep from the Flipper and NV2A?

I've been wondering if Nintendo will have ATI build on the Flipper strengths instead of adapting PC card tech in its entirety.


those are really GOOD questions. none of us on the outside have any solid answers yet. it's like it is 1999 and we're wondering what Flipper is goinna be like in Dolphin.

we might try to guess though. since Nintendo has said that Revolution will play Gamecube games, I would imagine the Revolution GPU will run Flipper code. not through emulation, but by being backwards compatible with Flipper. just a guess though.

I think ATI will indeed build on the strengths of Flipper. we do have an ATI statement about both graphics processors (Xe, Rev) that they'd both have DX9-level shaders. I guess that means SM 3.0 level shaders.

I'm pretty confident that both Xe and Rev graphic processors will push over 1 billion polys/sec raw and be able to maintain 100s of millions of polys with shaders, effects, etc in games. all nextgen consoles should.

I don't know if we will see a similar leap in performance from Flipper to Rev GPU that we saw from N64's RCP to GC's FLipper. I hope it is that much. :)


now although its very possible Xe and Rev GPUs/VPUs will share some basic building blocks of technology, they will not be the same. I am not even gonna touch the "Xe is the same as Rev" idea because that is just... silly.

I for one do NOT think that Revolution graphics processor will be some cheap POS compared to Xe or PS3's equivalent. I think because Rev is coming 6-12 months later than Xe, Nintendo will get something that has a slightly or somewhat higher price-to-performance ratio. maybe cheaper with similar performance. maybe same price but higher performance.

ATI is probably making somewhat different trade-offs with both Xe and Rev graphics processors. it is always about trade-offs :)

now admittedly, we don't have a similar senario from which to compare to. where one company produced graphics processors for 2 consoles coming out within 6-12 months of each other.

[thop]

rev·o·lu·tion

1a. Orbital motion about a point, especially as distinguished from axial rotation: the planetary revolution about the sun.
1b. A turning or rotational motion about an axis.
1c. A single complete cycle of such orbital or axial motion.

2. The overthrow of one government and its replacement with another.
3. A sudden or momentous change in a situation: the revolution in computer technology.
4. Geology: A time of major crustal deformation, when folds and faults are formed.
I hope it's not gyro unless it's really good.

[Ooh-videogames]

How different will the Revolution GPU design from Xenon?


How will this affect the differences in performance?

And what features would you keep from the Flipper and NV2A?

I've been wondering if Nintendo will have ATI build on the Flipper strengths instead of adapting PC card tech in its entirety.


those are really GOOD questions. none of us on the outside have any solid answers yet. it's like it is 1999 and we're wondering what Flipper is goinna be like in Dolphin.

we might try to guess though. since Nintendo has said that Revolution will play Gamecube games, I would imagine the Revolution GPU will run Flipper code. not through emulation, but by being backwards compatible with Flipper. just a guess though.

I think ATI will indeed build on the strengths of Flipper. we do have an ATI statement about both graphics processors (Xe, Rev) that they'd both have DX9-level shaders. I guess that means SM 3.0 level shaders.

I'm pretty confident that both Xe and Rev graphic processors will push over 1 billion polys/sec raw and be able to maintain 100s of millions of polys with shaders, effects, etc in games. all nextgen consoles should.

I don't know if we will see a similar leap in performance from Flipper to Rev GPU that we saw from N64's RCP to GC's FLipper. I hope it is that much. :)


now although its very possible Xe and Rev GPUs/VPUs will share some basic building blocks of technology, they will not be the same. I am not even gonna touch the "Xe is the same as Rev" idea because that is just... silly.

I for one do NOT think that Revolution graphics processor will be some cheap POS compared to Xe or PS3's equivalent. I think because Rev is coming 6-12 months later than Xe, Nintendo will get something that has a slightly or somewhat higher price-to-performance ratio. maybe cheaper with similar performance. maybe same price but higher performance.

ATI is probably making somewhat different trade-offs with both Xe and Rev graphics processors. it is always about trade-offs :)

now admittedly, we don't have a similar senario from which to compare to. where one company produced graphics processors for 2 consoles coming out within 6-12 months of each other.

Great post Mega, ATI latest graphics card the X850 consist of up to 16 pixel pipes and 6 parallel vertex processing engines. What should we expect with the XE and Rev?

24-32 pixel pipes

8-10 parallel vertex processing engines

One more thing I've been wondering about is, NEC and their level of fab process, when will or have they moved to 65nm fab process. Or should we expect a 90nm process for the Rev GPU.

[Guden Oden]

24-32 pixel pipes

What's it going to use 24 pixel pipes for when it's not going to draw any super-high resolutions, much less 32 pipes? :shock:

It's so typical, always whenever machine X is discussed and someone speculates on its specs, they invariably take the highest-performing bit of hardware available at the moment, then add 50-100% to the figures. ;)

[Fox5]

We don't even know about all the hardware in DS yet, never mind Revolution

what are we really missing, hardware knowlage wise, from the ds?
http://hardware.gamespot.com/Nintendo-DS-11722-S-4-6

Who made the 3d hardware and its full features.

BTW, revolution = family computer 2.

[Joshua Luna]

rev·o·lu·tion

1a. Orbital motion about a point, especially as distinguished from axial rotation: the planetary revolution about the sun.
1b. A turning or rotational motion about an axis.
1c. A single complete cycle of such orbital or axial motion.

2. The overthrow of one government and its replacement with another.
3. A sudden or momentous change in a situation: the revolution in computer technology.
4. Geology: A time of major crustal deformation, when folds and faults are formed.
I hope it's not gyro unless it's really good.

I thought last year Nintendo invested in some company who specialized in gyroscopes. Here is a google result: Info (http://www.gamecubicle.com/news-nintendo_gyration.htm)

Revolution, Gyroscopes... hmmm

Personally I am hoping Nintendo gets daring again. They stuck their big toe in the water too soon with the illfated Virtual Boy, but I hope it did not scare them off too much. A Head Mounted Display (HMD) as a standard feature of their next console would be great. Even if it was only 640x480 w/ 2 screens, the immersion and interactivy would be insane. It also would open up a lot of game play doors and make some genres like FPS open to more players... and could also blurr a lot of genre lines.

Oh well, I can wish :)

[PC-Engine]

NEC's fab capabilities are comparable to TMSC's so I'd say 65nm for Revolution GPU is possible but unlikely.

[Megadrive1988]

Ooh-videogames wrote:

Great post Mega, ATI latest graphics card the X850 consist of up to 16 pixel pipes and 6 parallel vertex processing engines. What should we expect with the XE and Rev?

24-32 pixel pipes

8-10 parallel vertex processing engines

One more thing I've been wondering about is, NEC and their level of fab process, when will or have they moved to 65nm fab process. Or should we expect a 90nm process for the Rev GPU.

well lets see about pipelines in Nintendo consoles.

Nintendo 64's RCP: 1 vertex pipe (RSP) and 1 pixel pipe (RDP)

Gamecube's Flipper: 1 vertex pipe (XF: Triangle Transform Engine) and 4 pixel pipes (or 4 pixels per clock) and the one "4-in-1" texture unit (TEV) 4 filtered texels per clock.

Revolution's VPU: ???? I say at least 4x the pixels per clock that Flipper puts out: so 16 pixels (or more) per clock. maybe 24 to 32 pixels per clock if Nintendo wants higher performance. who knows.

vertex pipes: well both RCP and Flipper had one each, so it's hard to say what Rev will have. maybe one super pipe that can crank out the equivalent of what 8-12 vertex pipes in a Radeon VPU would do. current Radeon X800/X850 have 6 vertex shaders, and R520 reportedly has 8. I'd like Nintendo VPU to have at least 8 if not 12. or the equivalent. (like how instead of seperate TMUs, the Flipper has a TEV that cranks out 4 texels per cycle. maybe Rev VPU will have the vertex equivalent of the TEV.

or maybe instead, the Rev VPU might have unified shaders / unified pipelines like the Xenon VPU. although the 2 VPUs still would not be the same. maybe Rev VPU will be closer to SM 4.0 or maybe not. we don't even know what the basis for Rev VPU is. Is it an extension of Flipper, or is it based more off of R520 or R600 (but still custom and different than Xe VPU) ?

it's easy to speculate. really we have no answers on Revolution VPU unlike Xe VPU which there seems to be quite a bit of info on.

[see colon]

Who made the 3d hardware and its full features.

i'm not sure who made the ds's graphics core, but i did fins this information about it...
http://zerohaven.com/ds/wiki/index.php?title=Video:Main

The DS has only one 3D core, so it's only possible to use 3D on only one screen at same time.
3D is rendered directly on LCD, not on framebuffer.
3D is handled 100% in hardware.
Supports Z-buffer, w-buffer, stencil-buffer and anti-aliasing.
Polygon Rate: 120,000 Polygons (triangles) per second
Pixel Fillrate: 30 million pixels per second
Geometric Transformation: 4 million vertex per second
(from the videos I saw from E3-2004, it did not appear to have bilinear filtering)

[Wunderchu]

NEC's fab capabilities are comparable to TMSC's so I'd say 65nm for Revolution GPU is possible but unlikely...I agree ... it looks like the console which has the highest chance to have a 65 nm GPU , is PS3

[cybamerc]

What's it going to use 24 pixel pipes for when it's not going to draw any super-high resolutions, much less 32 pipes? :shock:

Well... high fillrate is always a good thing and 1080p isn't exactly low res.

[london-boy]

24-32 pixel pipes

What's it going to use 24 pixel pipes for when it's not going to draw any super-high resolutions, much less 32 pipes? :shock:

;)


SSHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock: :evil:

[Megadrive1988]

more fillrate is always good. 720p and 1080i with anti-aliasing will demand at least decent fillrate. 1080p even more but i don't think 1080p will be a standard. maybe at most, 1080p will be as commen as 1080i and 720p are today in console games.

btw, DaveB, any new tidbits on Revolution's GPU/VPU would be appreciated, as a Christmas gift :twisted: ....

....though I imagine info on it is very hard to come by if any at all....