New DVD Has Dual-Layered Surface (HD-DVD one-up on Blu-ray?)

[Josh378]

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/041208/japan_toshiba_dvds_1.html

Japan Companies Develop DVD That Can Play on Existing Machines, Coming High-Definition Players

TOKYO (AP) -- Two Japanese companies said Tuesday they have developed a DVD that can play on both existing machines and the upcoming high-definition players, raising hopes for a smooth transition as more people dump old TV sets for better screens.

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Toshiba Corp. and Memory-Tech Corp. said their disc has a dual-layered surface that can store both types of data on the same side.

For consumers, that would eliminate the potential headache of having to own two types of DVD players: Both will be able to read such discs, though only the newer equipment can take advantage of the higher-resolution technology.

The discs, which took six months to develop, will be able to hold 4.7 GB in the current format and 15 GB in high resolution, Memory-Tech spokesman Masato Otsuka said.

Making the discs won't cost any more than the companies now spend on producing current DVDs, Otsuka said.

The new DVDs rely on the HD-DVD format, which has the backing of the DVD Forum, an international association of electronics makers and movie studios. New DVD players using the format are expected to hit stores by late 2005.

Its competitor, Blu-Ray, is backed by Sony Corp., its Hollywood studio and News Corp.'s Fox Entertainment Group Inc. Blu-Ray has more storage space, but HD-DVD is expected to be cheaper to produce because its technology closely resembles current DVDs.

It's still unclear which will become the dominant technology.

Ouch.....what will Sony and the other companies one-up Toshiba?

-Josh378

[Guden Oden]

What's this doing in the console forum:?:

[Jov]

What's this doing in the console forum:?:

Because its like a MS [HD-DVD] one-up Sony wrt consoles:?: :?: :lol:

[wco81]

Actually this weakens HD-DVD as a next gen format.

Instead of two 15-GB layers, this hybrid disc would have one 15-GB layer and a 4.7 GB layer. IOW, they would be reducing the capacity when it's already losing in the storage capacity battle vs. Blu-Ray.

[emacs]

Ouch.....what will Sony and the other companies one-up Toshiba?

not a "one-up" but Sony will ease the migration to Blu-ray with ...
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200411/04-1116E/

[quest55720]

Actually this weakens HD-DVD as a next gen format.

Instead of two 15-GB layers, this hybrid disc would have one 15-GB layer and a 4.7 GB layer. IOW, they would be reducing the capacity when it's already losing in the storage capacity battle vs. Blu-Ray.


I think it is great. I can buy combo disks and play them on my laptop, PC, regualar DVD player and eventually a HD-DVD player. Unless blue ray movies come with a regular DVD version then no sale to me. I travel a lot and my laptop DVD player is a god send. This is big think how happy rental places are one disk to cover both HD and non-HD. Blue ray can go away now. This is just to damn sweet Ill be able to build up a HD library while I save for a HD TV and player. My friends or family want to borrow a movie no problem.

[Tagrineth]

You know, this technology could make feasible the "Current gen game that gets a *** boost from being played in future console" idea someone had in another thread....

[phat]

This is just to damn sweet Ill be able to build up a HD library while I save for a HD TV and player. My friends or family want to borrow a movie no problem.

Think for a moment. The half bit-rate versions of movies on this dual-standard format will hardly be library-quality...

[Almasy]

Wouldn´t the movie quality be compromised quite a bit by this?? I don´t think this is much more than a hack.

Yeah, it´s nice that you can get a disc that is also compatible with HD-DVD, but it ends up being defficient as a movie in a standard definition as well as deficient as a HD movie.

[rabidrabbit]

I don't see how this is advantageous to the consumer in any way.

Major HD DVD releases should still come as non-hybrid HD DVD discs to really take advantage of the extra storage space.

You'd still need a HD DVD player to view HD DVD content.
HD DVD players will already be able to read current DVD's

I don't see many consumers buying these hybrid discs just to "get ready for HD-DVD while being able to view the DVD content" if they don't already own High Def players/displays.

[PC-Engine]

This can be a good thing if implemented well. For example they can include a HD version of the movie on the 4.7GB red laser read layer. All you would need is a MPEG4 or VC-1 decoder since every DVD drive currently on the market can read this layer with no problems. This opens the way for cheap red laser DVD/HD DVD hybrid players. Later when the blue laser HD DVD player prices fall people can just pop the same disc back in that they bought and get the full blow HD DVD treatment with significantly higher bitrates. They can always pack in two of these hybrid discs for bonus features like they currently do today.

However the downside to this scenario is that regular stand alone players cannot play these discs only computer players where the decoder is software based. I wonder if people are willing to buy a cheap hybrid HD DVD player to replace their existing standalone DVD players. I think it's a good choice for consumers considering DVD players nowadays are pretty cheap anyway and people usually have more than one so say if they choose to buy these new cheap Hybrid HD DVD players they can play their old DVDs as well as the new red laser based HD DVDs at a very low cost maybe $200-$300 at launch in 2005?

[Guden Oden]

Because its like a MS [HD-DVD] one-up Sony wrt consoles:?: :?: :lol:

It is? Please explain how TF that would be the case. The way I see it, if anything, this product dilutes HD-DVD as a format and lessens the need for a switch. Why would people buy HD-DVD players if they can continue to use their old DVD players?

PS3 on the other hand WILL READ BLU-RAY AND DVD. Anyone who buys a PS3 will have blu-ray compatibility as a freebie. Why would anyone need a half-assed dual-layer double format thing? Unneccessary, when the drive mechanism will play blu-ray, CD and DVD all in one.

Besides, when did MS confirm they'll use HD-DVD in nextbox? That's afaik just an assumption, though perhaps one classified as a fairly safe bet since "only" 9GB might be too little for next-gen games (though I know of no games which take up even close to that much space without also including movies). Still not set in stone though.

[rabidrabbit]

This can be a good thing if implemented well. For example they can include a HD version of the movie on the 4.7GB red laser read layer. All you would need is a MPEG4 or VC-1 decoder since every DVD drive currently on the market can read this layer with no problems. This opens the way for cheap red laser DVD/HD DVD hybrid players. Later when the blue laser HD DVD player prices fall people can just pop the same disc back in that they bought and get the full blow HD DVD treatment with significantly higher bitrates. They can always pack in two of these hybrid discs for bonus features like they currently do today.

However the downside to this scenario is that regular stand alone players cannot play these discs only computer players where the decoder is software based. I wonder if people are willing to buy a cheap hybrid HD DVD player to replace their existing standalone DVD players. I think it's a good choice for consumers considering DVD players nowadays are pretty cheap anyway and people usually have more than one so say if they choose to buy these new cheap Hybrid HD DVD players they can play their old DVDs as well as the new red laser based HD DVDs at a very low cost maybe $200-$300 at launch in 2005?
Yeah, I'm sure I would jump in joy to get my hands on a half-assed dvd version of the movie on one-layer (you see, they put virtually every DVD on two layers today, to get room for better picture and sound, together with extras),
and a half-assed high definition version of the movie on the second layer :roll:
It'd be even better if they released the movie on 4 discs to retain the quality and features of a "normal" dvd or HD versions

...or I could just buy the DVD and be happy with it, and maybe if the move is good enough I'd buy the real, superiour HD-DVD version.

........on the other hand, I think I'll just dl the divx from p2p, that'll save me a big penny and a lot of hassle :lol: (<- sarcasm)

[-tkf-]

Two good formats reduced to 1/2 their potential with one blow..

[london-boy]

You know, this technology could make feasible the "Current gen game that gets a *** boost from being played in future console" idea someone had in another thread....

Oi Tag where have you been!!?

[Farid]

The DVD movie on 1 layer and the HDDVD version of the movie on a 2nd layer scenario, is very unlikely to become a reality.
Without even mentioning the technical side of the thing (potentialy halving the bitrate in both format), i'll just point out the fact that this scenario is definitely not a winner solution for the studios. When they could sell you twice the same movie, here they would sale it to you only once... Very unlikely, i said.

[PC-Engine]

This can be a good thing if implemented well. For example they can include a HD version of the movie on the 4.7GB red laser read layer. All you would need is a MPEG4 or VC-1 decoder since every DVD drive currently on the market can read this layer with no problems. This opens the way for cheap red laser DVD/HD DVD hybrid players. Later when the blue laser HD DVD player prices fall people can just pop the same disc back in that they bought and get the full blow HD DVD treatment with significantly higher bitrates. They can always pack in two of these hybrid discs for bonus features like they currently do today.

However the downside to this scenario is that regular stand alone players cannot play these discs only computer players where the decoder is software based. I wonder if people are willing to buy a cheap hybrid HD DVD player to replace their existing standalone DVD players. I think it's a good choice for consumers considering DVD players nowadays are pretty cheap anyway and people usually have more than one so say if they choose to buy these new cheap Hybrid HD DVD players they can play their old DVDs as well as the new red laser based HD DVDs at a very low cost maybe $200-$300 at launch in 2005?
Yeah, I'm sure I would jump in joy to get my hands on a half-assed dvd version of the movie on one-layer (you see, they put virtually every DVD on two layers today, to get room for better picture and sound, together with extras),
and a half-assed high definition version of the movie on the second layer :roll:
It'd be even better if they released the movie on 4 discs to retain the quality and features of a "normal" dvd or HD versions

...or I could just buy the DVD and be happy with it, and maybe if the move is good enough I'd buy the real, superiour HD-DVD version.

........on the other hand, I think I'll just dl the divx from p2p, that'll save me a big penny and a lot of hassle :lol: (<- sarcasm)

I suggest you reread my post.

Here I'll clarify for you. The 4.7GB layer will also be HD using the new CODECs to offer HD resolutions using the standard red laser. Obviously this is only beneficial to people who: 1. buy new red laser based HD DVD playres which will be VERY cheap and/or 2. watch DVDs on their PCs.

Now with regards to the blue laser HD layer, 15GB might be enough for the main movie while the extras can be put on a second disc. Of course this is only a stop gap to ease the transition while the prices on blue laser HD DVD players fall to mass market levels. Heck people are starting to move to upconverting DVD players already. Not only that but this scenario also allows PS3 to playback red laser based HD DVD movies!!! :P

[rabidrabbit]

...yes PC........... what you just explained would only make me put my previous post in bold, italic, underlined, CAPS'ed and remove the "(<-sarcasm)" at the end.
.
.
.
so what was your point again?

[london-boy]

I've only glanced over this thread but i can already see it's at the point of no return. When PC-Engine argues. With no one. He just argues. And uses lots of little cute emoticons.

[PC-Engine]

I've only glanced over this thread but i can already see it's at the point of no return. When PC-Engine argues. With no one. He just argues. And uses lots of little cute emoticons.

If you have nothing to add other than to make comments about other members then maybe you shouldn't say anything at all? Why so much drama dude?

Anyhow...like I said this CAN be a good thing as a shorterm solution. Nobody said this will mean no DL HD DVD in the future. Nobody is forcing you to buy these if they indeed materialize. Regardless nobody knows what bitrate the studios plan on using initially even for full blown DL HD DVDs. If they do what they did when DVD initially appeared then they won't be using all of the space on a DVD since initially DVDs were only single layer. :wink: And that is what I predict will happen in the beginning with HD DVD. You guys actually think Hollywood would use DL HD DVD right off the bat just for the main movie and put the bonus material on a second DL HD DVD? :lol:

[Almasy]

I suggest you reread my post.

Here I'll clarify for you. The 4.7GB layer will also be HD using the new CODECs to offer HD resolutions using the standard red laser. Obviously this is only beneficial to people who: 1. buy new red laser based HD DVD playres which will be VERY cheap and/or 2. watch DVDs on their PCs.

Now with regards to the blue laser HD layer, 15GB might be enough for the main movie while the extras can be put on a second disc. Of course this is only a stop gap to ease the transition while the prices on blue laser HD DVD players fall to mass market levels. Heck people are starting to move to upconverting DVD players already. Not only that but this scenario also allows PS3 to playback red laser based HD DVD movies!!! :P

So, let´s say you put a HD DVD, red laser version of the movie on one layer, right? You suggest that it would be beneficial to people who play them on their PCs and buy new gear capable of reading a red laser version of HD DVD, right?

Well, here´s a few problems with your theory:

1. The number of people that use their computers to play DVDs is far smaller than the number of people that just buy a box to play DVDs on their TVs. How can your idea be a transitional tool when the great mayority of the market can´t enjoy it anyway?

2. Maybe I don´t understand the way the CE market works, however I still have a few poblems with the idea of marketing people a device that plays not even half of what the new standard is supposed to be able to play. The blue laser version of HD DVD is "the real deal", right? Then why sell people players that can only read red laser versions? How can that be a smooth transition when you will require those new buyers of HD DVD players to get a new machine all over again to enjoy the movies on the new format like they´re supposed to?

[Jov]

Because its like a MS [HD-DVD] one-up Sony wrt consoles:?: :?: :lol:

It is? Please explain how TF that would be the case. The way I see it, if anything, this product dilutes HD-DVD as a format and lessens the need for a switch. Why would people buy HD-DVD players if they can continue to use their old DVD players?

PS3 on the other hand WILL READ BLU-RAY AND DVD. Anyone who buys a PS3 will have blu-ray compatibility as a freebie. Why would anyone need a half-assed dual-layer double format thing? Unneccessary, when the drive mechanism will play blu-ray, CD and DVD all in one.

Besides, when did MS confirm they'll use HD-DVD in nextbox? That's afaik just an assumption, though perhaps one classified as a fairly safe bet since "only" 9GB might be too little for next-gen games (though I know of no games which take up even close to that much space without also including movies). Still not set in stone though.

Chill.. I was just giving you a potential reason why this topic is in the Console forum.. not arguing for or against it.

Personally, I don't see how this works as you will need 2 DL-DVDs even for todays single disc movies.

[AzBat]

I'm confused. It says...

will be able to hold 4.7 GB in the current format and 15 GB in high resolution

One layer holds 4.7gb and the second layer holds 15gb? For a total of 19.7gb?

What's the size of the Xbox1 discs? What about today's movies? How much space would HD movies require? How much does a full HD-DVD hold?

I could possibly see this being used for non-movies like bonus content, Xbox2, etc. Though I agree as a transitional movie format it might not be worth it for the studios.

Tommy McClain

[Tagrineth]

You know, this technology could make feasible the "Current gen game that gets a *** boost from being played in future console" idea someone had in another thread....

Oi Tag where have you been!!?

I moved to a new city for college, so I didn't have time to post / read for a while... but I've been posting off and on here for the last two or more weeks, almost a minimum of once per day... so where have you been!!? ;)

[PC-Engine]

1. The number of people that use their computers to play DVDs is far smaller than the number of people that just buy a box to play DVDs on their TVs. How can your idea be a transitional tool when the great mayority of the market can´t enjoy it anyway?

How many people do you know who has a desktop/laptop with DVD drive that has never used it's DVD movie playing capability? How many DVD drives are out there? The answer to that question is A LOT.

2. Maybe I don´t understand the way the CE market works, however I still have a few poblems with the idea of marketing people a device that plays not even half of what the new standard is supposed to be able to play. The blue laser version of HD DVD is "the real deal", right? Then why sell people players that can only read red laser versions? How can that be a smooth transition when you will require those new buyers of HD DVD players to get a new machine all over again to enjoy the movies on the new format like they´re supposed to?

Because it can be done very cheaply and because DVD started out as single layer. People don't have to wait for the player to come down to $300 after 1-2 years. For example just look at the new upconverting DVD players. People are buying them to watch standard DVDs on a HDTV. If they're willing to buy a new more expensive DVD player for just a minor improvement over stand DVD players, then they will be willing to do the same to get true HD movie content from these dual red/blue laser hybrid HD DVD discs. The red layer would hold a low quality HD movie while the blue layer would hold the high quality HD movie.

[london-boy]

You know, this technology could make feasible the "Current gen game that gets a *** boost from being played in future console" idea someone had in another thread....

Oi Tag where have you been!!?

I moved to a new city for college, so I didn't have time to post / read for a while... but I've been posting off and on here for the last two or more weeks, almost a minimum of once per day... so where have you been!!? ;)

:shock: :oops: I'm a shy boy, took me a while to approach you :wink:

[rabidrabbit]

Because it can be done very cheaply and because DVD started out as single layer.
What has that got to do with the success of the dual standard format?
Those one layer early DVD's look like crap compared to today's dual layer, higher bitrate releases.
The film companies could of course strip the DVD layer from all extra options, like only one sound track, one subtitle and no extras like commentaries.
But if you release the disc with only one language option, that would complicate the worldwide releases way too much to be economically viable.
I just don't see this getting much support either from content creators or consumers. It might have marginal markets for people like you... but I fear they are a relatively small group.

[PC-Engine]

Because it can be done very cheaply and because DVD started out as single layer.
What has that got to do with the success of the dual standard format?
Those one layer early DVD's look like crap compared to today's dual layer, higher bitrate releases.
The film companies could of course strip the DVD layer from all extra options, like only one sound track, one subtitle and no extras like commentaries.
But if you release the disc with only one language option, that would complicate the worldwide releases way too much to be economically viable.
I just don't see this getting much support either from content creators or consumers. It might have marginal markets for people like you... but I fear they are a relatively small group.

What do you mean by dual standard? A red/blue HD DVD hybrid disc? Please clarify.

[rabidrabbit]

What do you mean by dual standard? A red/blue HD DVD hybrid disc? Please clarify.
:?
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/041208/japan_toshiba_dvds_1.html
I don't know if "dual standard" is the right term (likely not), but I hope you haven't already forgotten what has been talked about in this thread.

[PC-Engine]

Ok if we're talking about this dual standard hybrid red/blue laser HD DVD then like I said there isn't a problem since you either buy the cheap red laser DVD player to watch the low quality HD red laser layer at launch or you wait until the price of the initially expensive blue laser HD DVD player comes down to play the blue layer of the this dual standard hybrid red/blue laser HD DVD.

Remember they HD DVD is using a higher efficiency CODEC in conjunction with higher capacity 15GB vs 4.7 GB. With 3 times the capacity and several times the codec efficiency, you can still fit a movie on the single 15GB layer just like the first movies fit on a single DVD layer.

Later on when the prices fall on the blue laser HD DVD players and people migrate over, they can slow start to phase out this hybrid disc and convert to thte full blow 30GB discs.

[Ty]

Sounds like a "hack" to me. If DVD (480p) quality is compromised in any way (or if they strip out extras) then it's a hack, right?

Oh, oddly enough I have a DVD player in my PC but have NEVER used it for movies. Why would I watch it on my PC when I have one of the best DVD players for my HT setup? Even though my CRT is a top of the line Sony, it still pales in comparison to my TV and the rest of the whole HT experience in my living room. I really don't know how many people watch movies on their PC DVD player. I definately can see this for laptops but not desktops imo.

[rabidrabbit]

PC-Engine: So you really expect people to buy a new "pseudo HD-DVD/DVD" player just to be able to wiew that "pseudo HD-DVD" material that offers only a marginal improvement on current DVD, while waiting for the "real" HD-DVD?

They likely already have a DVD player they can use to view all DVD's and which still has a very stable future ahead of it, unlike some "pseudo HD-DVD" format, and I don't think other than hardcore hobbyists are that eager to get their hand on higher-than-dvd resolution material, especially as it isn't that much higher.

Wait... is this even news :? Isn't there already some Terminator 2 DVD special edition that has a higher resolution version of the film that uses MS codec, and can be played on Windows Mediaplayer???? Was that on the same disc, or was it aseparate disc??

[PC-Engine]

Sounds like a "hack" to me. If DVD (480p) quality is compromised in any way (or if they strip out extras) then it's a hack, right?

That's what the high efficiency CODEC is for. Have you seen T2EE HD? Did you think it was worse than standard DVD? How much space did the actual movie itself use?

Oh, oddly enough I have a DVD player in my PC but have NEVER used it for movies. Why would I watch it on my PC when I have one of the best DVD players for my HT setup? Even though my CRT is a top of the line Sony, it still pales in comparison to my TV and the rest of the whole HT experience in my living room. I really don't know how many people watch movies on their PC DVD player. I definately can see this for laptops but not desktops imo.

If it's cheap why not? You're seriously underestimating the potential of DVD drives that are already out there. Last time I checked the number of DVD drives for computers are close to or over 100 million. Of course you would have to have a pretty powerful computer or you would have to buy a cheap dedicated HD DVD decoder card. Let's say NLC release LOTR on this hybrid disc. Do you think people won't be all over this considering how cheap it is to acquire?

Again for the 3rd straight time. If they also release new cheap HD red laser standalone DVD players, do you think people would NOT buy them to watch these HD movies? Just look at the desparate whores who are snapping up the Superbit DVDs and upconverting DVD players. Why get buy Superbit and/or upconverting DVD players when you can have true HD???

PC-Engine: So you really expect people to buy a new "pseudo HD-DVD/DVD" player just to be able to wiew that "pseudo HD-DVD" material that offers only a marginal improvement on current DVD, while waiting for the "real" HD-DVD?

Read the part above where I talke about Superbit and upconverting DVD whores. Also do you seriously believe T2EE HD is only marginally better than standard DVDs?

They likely already have a DVD player they can use to view all DVD's and which still has a very stable future ahead of it, unlike some "pseudo HD-DVD" format, and I don't think other than hardcore hobbyists are that eager to get their hand on higher-than-dvd resolution material, especially as it isn't that much higher.

What do yo mean? It would be HD resolution 1080 like T2EE which destroys standard DVDs not to mention it DVD backwards compatibility.

Wait... is this even news Isn't there already some Terminator 2 DVD special edition that has a higher resolution version of the film that uses MS codec, and can be played on Windows Mediaplayer???? Was that on the same disc, or was it aseparate disc??

It was a separate HD release after the standard DVD release. Basically these announced hybrid discs allows you to pack in the HD T2EE movie on the 4.7GB layer while also giving you the higher quality (same HD resolution) on the 15GB layer. Of course there's nothing to stop the studios from releasing a 720p version on the 4.7GB layer if 4.7GB isn't enough. :wink:

[ultimate_end]

Lol, this is just an extension of Toshiba, NEC & Co's short sighted "backwards compatiblity" philosophy :roll: . What am I going to do with a half-assed 15GB HD movie? As I see it, the only saving grace for HD DVD to provide true HD quality (that includes sound, in case anybody was wondering) was possibly their dual layer version (30GB). Now they put that on the back burner? No amount of mpeg4 wizardry is going to stretch 15GB I'm afraid. Next generation HD content should not be Next-gen half assed content! If I want DVD quality I'll buy a DVD. If I want 1080p and very minimum 96/24-6.1, (it looks like) I'll buy Blu-ray. Not some emasculated hybrid of the two :? .

It's horendously obvious that these HD-DVD fools are more interested in sucking up to the frightened majority of the DVD Forum, than giving a damn about providing a forward looking, well thought out solution to consumers' future requirements. The DVD Forum need not fear the coming High definition content, as IMO the DVD and HD formats will comfortably co-exist for some time to come (unlike VHS vs DVD). If this doesn't end soon, the future of HD content media is going to be seriously compromised (and I'm not only talking DVD-R/DVD+R compromised either).

And yes I do realise this new disc is just an intermediate solution, but it nicely highlights HD-DVD's short-term-thinking philosophy. To those who are happy with DVD "1.5" then good for you. But don't come whinging when in a couple of years from now you run out of capacity and there is no Blu-ray around to save your collective asses. Maybe then you will realise that thinking only one year ahead at a time is a flawed approach to life.

But enough of this rant. If someone doesn't find a way to apply this topic to consoles very soon, this thread must be locked.

[london-boy]

Well, the Lord of the Rings special editions, the 4 discs ones, already use more space than a normal DVD, and although that's a special case (and a very very irritating one, i mean, change disc in mid-movie??!!!), a 15GB disc won't cut it as a next gen disc.

This sounds a lot like MD. A format that doesn't really provide anything new or much better than the existing one, and not good enough compared to the real next gen.

[PC-Engine]

They can always release the hybrid versions separately from the full blown 30GB HD DVD versions if demand is there kinda like Superbit. :lol: If consumers put their money where thier mouth is ie buy the expensive players and 30GB versions then I'm sure the studios would oblige.

BTW lb why wouldn't 15GB not be enough? T2EE uses about 6 or 7 GBs for 1080p that's only half of 15GBs. Have you seen the quality of T2EE?

[london-boy]

They can always release the hybrid versions separately from the full blown 30GB HD DVD versions if demand is there kinda like Superbit. :lol: If consumers put their money where thier mouth is ie buy the expensive players and 30GB versions then I'm sure the studios would oblige.

BTW lb why wouldn't 15GB not be enough? T2EE uses about 6 or 7 GBs for 1080p that's only half of 15GBs. Have you seen the quality of T2EE?

No i haven't actually since it was never released in the UK AFAIK.
I'm just a bit annoyed at the changing discs thing for the LOTR special editions...

[wco81]

The enthusiasts want high bit rates, even with H.264 or VC-1. Because they are targeting 1080p24 or 30 along with newer audio codecs, even lossless audio.

For that 15 GB is simply not enough without cutting the bit rates to well under 10 Mbps.

More and more, it's becoming obvious that HD-DVD exists solely to maintain the patent licensing revenue sharing agreements for the current patent holders and nothing else.

Blu-Ray is the true innovation while HD-DVD is at best a kludge intended to extend a technically inferior format for a few more years.

For anyone who wants a recording solution as well as a playback solution, there is simply no choice.

[ultimate_end]

They can always release the hybrid versions separately from the full blown 30GB HD DVD versions if demand is there kinda like Superbit. :lol: If consumers put their money where thier mouth is ie buy the expensive players and 30GB versions then I'm sure the studios would oblige.

Well said.

Three points:

1. I'm not actually convinced dual layer HD-DVD is enough anyway (hence my scepicism of HD-DVD in general).

2. Why should mainstream HD consumers have to miss out on what HD is all about? And don't worry, if you are getting into HD content then the ever-so-slightly higher end equipment will likely be mainstream for you anyway. I mean we're not talking 192KHz 7.1 uncompressed sound here you know. In any case, we'll have to wait for quad layered Blu-ray for that (again HD-DVD is only a short term solution).

3. This is a big if, but what makes us so sure that companies want to be tied to monopolistic Microsoft's proprietry CODEC? The world grows more suspicious of Microsoft by the day, as you are probably aware (I aplogise, of course you are).

Anyway, by your reasoning, we don't even need HD-DVD at all do we? Most movies will fit onto a standard dual layer DVD with this new codec. But in any case the Terminator disc you refer to uses 1440x1080 resolution and is far from high quality compression. Also, as London-Boy pointed out, some movies are quite long and multiple disc is becoming unacceptable for such movies (even for the extras).


Sorry for sounding grumpy in all of this, but I take technology compromises quite seriously. (maybe too seriously - I hope I don't turn into Vince :wink: ).

[Ty]

That's what the high efficiency CODEC is for. Have you seen T2EE HD? Did you think it was worse than standard DVD? How much space did the actual movie itself use?

I have not. Which is why I used the word, "If". "If" 480p is compromised in any way, wouldn't you call that a hack? I don't know enough about this proposal to be able to make that kind of prediction for certain.

If it's cheap why not? You're seriously underestimating the potential of DVD drives that are already out there. Last time I checked the number of DVD drives for computers are close to or over 100 million. Of course you would have to have a pretty powerful computer or you would have to buy a cheap dedicated HD DVD decoder card. Let's say NLC release LOTR on this hybrid disc. Do you think people won't be all over this considering how cheap it is to acquire?

That's why the phrase you're responding to started with, "oddly enough". I'm not going to speak for the average PC desktop owner who has a DVD player. Just for me. But I think the reasoning for my experience is pretty sound. On the couch I can recline and enjoy the show. :)

Again for the 3rd straight time. If they also release new cheap HD red laser standalone DVD players, do you think people would NOT buy them to watch these HD movies? Just look at the desparate whores who are snapping up the Superbit DVDs and upconverting DVD players. Why get buy Superbit and/or upconverting DVD players when you can have true HD???

Sure. I never mentioned it wouldn't sell. I bet it would sell a whole lot better than Superbit players (I didn't know a DVD player needed to have hardware support for Superbit to work).

[gleemax]

I bet it would sell a whole lot better than Superbit players (I didn't know a DVD player needed to have hardware support for Superbit to work).
"Superbit" is a marketing term. The movie is encoded at a higher bitrate than the average DVD movie and less information is filtered out, which lessens visible artifacts and increases fine detail. It is still a DVD. They generally cut extras to make space.

[wco81]

I bet they will try to squeeze a lot of early titles on single layers at the beginning, just as they did with the DVD. That means keeping the bit rates down and if there's market acceptance, that may be the permanent state of affairs.

Then later, they may market "Superbit" HD-DVDs. At least BR starts with way more capacity so they may be enouraged to produce the best PQ.

[Ty]

"Superbit" is a marketing term. The movie is encoded at a higher bitrate than the average DVD movie and less information is filtered out, which lessens visible artifacts and increases fine detail. It is still a DVD. They generally cut extras to make space.

Ah gotcha.

[cthellis42]

Interestingly, I have no idea how this will be received by the marketplace. Hybrid devices like that have not been tested before because there were physical impossibilities (record to tape, tape to CD, VHS to DVD...) and where we CAN see them (like DVD-audio with an included CD track or similar tech) we can't really judge as the tech is not as widely-received at this time.

Does that tell us that people really won't care, or that they may well now that it CAN be an option?

On the whole, I tend to think it wouldn't have a huge impact, as early adopters tend to pick up new equipment regardless of cost or capabilities, and the mass market only picks it up when it's cheap enough. And in the meanwhile, if someone gets an HDTV and an HDTV player, they will still have to replace their existing library to get the high quality they're looking for--at which point it doesn't matter to them if it's HD-only or a HD/DVD hybrid as they already own the DVD.

Where it will make a bigger difference is with all the new movies and TV shows and other stuff that will come out after HD-DVD players and media start hitting the market, since people can then buy only one disk and know they can play it across machines.

The main concerns are the same ones being voiced now--technical in nature: Will such a hybrid add extra cost to the production that people wouldn't want? Will it keep HD-DVD from offering double-layer disks on said hybrids? Others are more market-typical questions: Will consumers actually know/understand the differences? Will hybrid disks just end up confusing them? Heck, will they actually like disks that have data on both sides, and not the pretty pictures on one side to admire? (Even to me knowing what the disks are, for some reason dual-sided disks just come off as "feeling cheap." I'd rather buy specifically widescreen or fullscreen disks rather than have a flip-disk. They just look better in the case, in a collection, and are much easier to identify.)

Simply put: is it something that will be "a hit" and pursued by consumers or would it simply be another shtick that gets some play, but really doesn't matter much in the long run?

My assumption at the moment is that consumers would rather pursue one-sided, format-devoted disks and they're simpler, likely have better capabilities for that particular format, and that they really don't care about repurchasing media or searching out the "right one for their machine" since they've always done it before. Once they shell out for an HDTV and an HDTV player, they're likely assuming they'll have to buy all new HDTV media anyway. And through the usual process of market competition, they'll still be seeing dual-layer HD-DVD and BR disks, and if they (or rather the people they talk to at Wal-Mart and Best Buy or wherever) can identify those other movies as "better"--higher quality output, more features, more "whatever"--they'll still want that instead for their brandy-new machines.

Hybrids always tend to come off as "second string" and "cheap" products and quite possible "not dependable" anyway--whether or not it's deserved--so there would have to essentially be no trade-offs involved to make people really sit up and take notice. (So to that point the question is: just how many of the trade-offs can they eliminate or make unnoticable?) Singular products always sell at much higher volumes, and I imagine that will apply to media as well as the hardware.

[Ty]

You've echoed my exact thoughts on this subject as well. This is seen as a potential transitional element but I don't think there is going to be enough time during the DVD -> HD-DVD/BR move for this to matter.

[PC-Engine]

cthellis42, please correct me if I'm wrong but Memory Tech didn't say anything about this hybrid disc being double sided? It could just be Dual layer single sided. Also regarding costs, MT said it costs the same to implement as a standard 30GB disc.

Edit: It's been confirmed that it's SS DL.

The new disk has the same structure as present single-sided, dual-layer DVD disks. Like conventional DVDs, two 0.6-mm disks, each with one recording layer, are bonded together with a roughly 40-micron-thick resin. The layer closest to the optical head has a 4.7-Gbyte capacity, meeting specifications for current DVDs. The other layer has a 15-Gbyte capacity to store HD DVD content.

The new disk would allow consumers to view DVD content until they purchase new HD DVD players.

The two companies claimed the new disk structure would expand content providers' options. Along with the DVD/HD DVD combination, the disk can store various content combinations like a full-length movie and a separate trailer.

The partners said they will soon propose the disk structure to the DVD Forum. Since it was derived from the present DVD dual-layer disk, development took only about six months, according to a Toshiba spokeswoman.

Memory-Tech said the new disk could be produced on its manufacturing lines at a cost that is comparable to current single-sided, dual-layer DVD-ROM or HD DVD-ROM disks.

http://www.eetimes.com/sys/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=W2NI22HDAONMYQSNDBGCK HSCJUMEKJVN?articleID=55300966

[cthellis42]

cthellis42, please correct me if I'm wrong but Memory Tech didn't say anything about this hybrid disc being double sided? It could just be Dual layer single sided. Also regarding costs, MT said it costs the same to implement as a standard 30GB disc.
I covered the future possibilities as well when I said: Will it keep HD-DVD from offering double-layer disks on said hybrids? I believed that it would for now, but that may not always be the case. It's one of the "trade-offs they can eliminate or make unnoticable." The question on that is "if" and "when." It's one of the possibilities that's still up in the air; it could be of concern, but it might be expanded on before the hybrids really start to catch on.

It does not seem like it will be "dual-layer + DVD" from the beginning, though, which could affect its pick-up and viability most. I'm not even talking about Blu-Ray here, but against dual-layer HD-DVD options, if people can indeed see a quality or content difference between them. (And studios may not be as keen to adopt it if it starts forcing themselves to use multiple disks for the HD-DVD quality/content levels they're aiming for.)

[PC-Engine]

1997
349,000 DVD-Video players shipped in the U.S. (About 200,000 sold into homes.)
900 DVD-Video titles available in the U.S. Over 5 million copies shipped; about 2 million sold.
Over 500,000 DVD-Video players shipped worldwide.
Around 330,000 DVD-ROM drives shipped worldwide with about 1 million bundled DVD-ROM titles.
60 DVD-ROM titles (mostly bundled).
1998
1,089,000 DVD-Video players shipped in the U.S. (Installed base of 1,438,000.)
400 DVD-Video titles in Europe (135 movie and music titles).
3,000 DVD-Video titles in the U.S. (2000 movie and music titles).
7.2 million DVD-Video discs purchased.
1999
4,019,000 DVD-Video players shipped in the U.S. (Installed base of 5,457,000.)
Over 6,300 DVD-Video titles in the U.S.
About 26 million DVD-ROM drives worldwide.
About 75 DVD-ROM titles available in the U.S.
2000
8.5 million DVD-Video players shipped in the U.S. (Installed base of 13,922,000.)
About 46 million DVD-ROM drives worldwide.
Over 10,000 DVD-Video titles available in the U.S.
Belgium: 100 thousand installed base
France: 1.2 million installed base
Germany: 1.2 million installed base
Italy: 360 thousand installed base
Netherlands: 200 thousand installed base
Spain: 300 thousand installed base
Sweden: 120 thousand installed base
Switzerland: 250 thousand installed base
UK: 1 million installed base
2001
12.7 million DVD-Video players shipped in the U.S. (Installed base of 26,629,000.)
Over 45 million DVD-ROM drives in the U.S.
Over 90 million DVD-ROM drives worldwide.
UK: 3 million installed base
2002
17 million DVD-Video players shipped in the U.S. (Installed base of 43,718,000.)
Over 75 million DVD-ROM drives in the U.S.
Over 140 million DVD-ROM drives worldwide.
2003 (fall)
16 million DVD-Video players shipped in the U.S. (Installed base of 73,300,000.)
Over 27,000 DVD-Video titles available in the U.S.