View Full Version : PowerVR5 on consoles ?
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20040522053649.html
New ( for me at least )
AlphaWolf
24-May-2004, 23:36
arcade machines for now is what I see
Imagination's financial review didn't state that they were signed on for a console, only that the technology which would target such markets was brewing.
We are close to delivering our very high-end next generation graphics technology that targets arcade, PC and console
It targets that market segment, it doesn't mean it will find application in it. 3dfx also targeted the console sector but lost to VideoLogic/IMG during the development of the Dreamcast.
akira888
25-May-2004, 00:11
It would greatly behoove Sony to license PVR Series 5 (or help finance a DX10 Series 6) rather than vainly attempt to develop a rasterizer from the ground up. It's a win-win deal, ImgTec gets a huge sum of cash and Sony gets cutting edge graphics technology. They should have licensed Kyro for PS2, but oh well.
Megadrive1988
25-May-2004, 00:20
Imagination's financial review didn't state that they were signed on for a console, only that the technology which would target such markets was brewing.
We are close to delivering our very high-end next generation graphics technology that targets arcade, PC and console
It targets that market segment, it doesn't mean it will find application in it. 3dfx also targeted the console sector but lost to VideoLogic/IMG during the development of the Dreamcast.
Lazy8s pc999 and Sonic are exactly right. PowerVR5 is targeted at arcades, PC and console, but it doesn't mean they have a console deal for Series 5 as they did with Sega in 1997 with Series 2 for what would become the Dreamcast.
Megadrive1988
25-May-2004, 00:26
It would greatly behoove Sony to license PVR Series 5 (or help finance a DX10 Series 6) rather than vainly attempt to develop a rasterizer from the ground up. It's a win-win deal, ImgTec gets a huge sum of cash and Sony gets cutting edge graphics technology. They should have licensed Kyro for PS2, but oh well.
Well, some sort of 'Super' PowerVR Series 3 / KYRO for PS2's rasterizer, if arranged in a 16 pipeline chip like Graphics Synthesizer would've been interesting I suppose. but a standard PowerVR3 / Kyro chip wouldn't have been of much use to Sony with only 2 pipes. That is not the road Sony decided to go down-which was extremely high fillrate & bandwidth. Besides, you've got to remember the timeline. when PS2 and GS was in development ( 1995 to 1997-8 ), there *was* no PowerVR3/KYRO. there was only Series 1 (PCX1/PCX2) available and Series 2 (CLX, PMX/Neon250) still in development. PowerVR3/KYRO probably did not go into development until 1998 at the soonest. too late to be ready for PS2 which was unveiled in early 1999.
However, in 1995-1996 there were rumors of Sony using a PowerVR Highlander graphics chip for PSX2/PS2. Highlander, if you recall, was the early name for PowerVR Series 2 in general, until Videologic clairified the names of the various chips within the Series 2 family. I don't know if there was any truth to those rumors of Sony using PowerVR. maybe for a much different version of PS2 that would've been intended for 1998.
I think it may be difficult for Sony to bolt something like a PVR graphics controller onto a system as complex as the PS3.. (or PS2 back then).
I think it may be difficult for Sony to bolt something like a PVR graphics controller onto a system as complex as the PS3.. (or PS2 back then). :roll: right so complex . The gs wasn't very complex at all.
akira888
25-May-2004, 01:19
MegaDrive:
The Kyro should have been in planning by 1996-1997 in order to make a 1999 unveilment as it takes three years to go from white sheet to silicon generally. Also, remember that Xbox was released only around 6 months after NV20 (and before NV25). Had Sony been interested in PVR tech no doubt they would have been shown the long term roadmap and would have received advance technical data about the chips yet to be released.
akira888
25-May-2004, 01:25
I think it may be difficult for Sony to bolt something like a PVR graphics controller onto a system as complex as the PS3.. (or PS2 back then).
Actually a PC should be much more complex due to all of the legacy support required, and Sony will have to put a graphics chip in there somehow.
But I wonder why you feel the PS3 will be so much more complex than similar hardware? I see no reason to believe that. I'd say on the whole Xbox is just as complex (if not more complex in many ways) than PS2.
I think it may be difficult for Sony to bolt something like a PVR graphics controller onto a system as complex as the PS3.. (or PS2 back then).
Actually a PC should be much more complex due to all of the legacy support required, and Sony will have to put a graphics chip in there somehow.
But I wonder why you feel the PS3 will be so much more complex than similar hardware? I see no reason to believe that. I'd say on the whole Xbox is just as complex (if not more complex in many ways) than PS2.
I'm referring to the effort required to integrate a graphics controller (see 'bolt on' comment). And with regards to the PS3, I'd say the whole system was built around the Cell architecture - slapping a PVR chip or something similar doesn't sound as easy as many people make it sound.
Megadrive1988
25-May-2004, 04:30
MegaDrive:
The Kyro should have been in planning by 1996-1997 in order to make a 1999 unveilment as it takes three years to go from white sheet to silicon generally. Also, remember that Xbox was released only around 6 months after NV20 (and before NV25). Had Sony been interested in PVR tech no doubt they would have been shown the long term roadmap and would have received advance technical data about the chips yet to be released.
Akira:
Indeed you could be absolutely right. PowerVR2 was in planning / development in 1995, so it is not inconcievable that PowerVR3/KYRO was in planning / dev. by 1997. you are absolutely right about Xbox timing in relation to NV20 and NV25. As well as about Sony, if they had been interested in PowerVR they most likely would have been shown a roadmap on future PowerVR technologies. The Playstation2 could have been powered by an advanced version of PowerVR2 (more advanced than DC) or even perhaps PowerVR3. your points are fair and reasonable 8)
Akira:
Indeed you could be absolutely right. PowerVR2 was in planning / development in 1995, so it is not inconcievable that PowerVR3/KYRO was in planning / dev. by 1997. you are absolutely right about Xbox timing in relation to NV20 and NV25. As well as about Sony, if they had been interested in PowerVR they most likely would have been shown a roadmap on future PowerVR technologies. The Playstation2 could have been powered by an advanced version of PowerVR2 (more advanced than DC) or even perhaps PowerVR3. your points are fair and reasonable 8)
Nvidia, Ati have at least two team working at the same time, is that the same with Imgtech's PowerVR?
Because if they only have one team working on one chip at the time, it's hard to have a close release date between two chips (if they are "really" different, of course). Wich mean that when Nvidia had already started the work on NV20 and 25 when MS asked them to "create" the XGPU, in the meanwhile PowerVR "may" have not started concrete work on the PVR3 by the time they were creating PVR2, therefore the PVR3 would have not maked it on time to be aboard of PS2. Maybe a souped up PVR2 could have be an alternative, as you said. :D
Simon F
25-May-2004, 07:56
I think it may be difficult for Sony to bolt something like a PVR graphics controller onto a system as complex as the PS3.. (or PS2 back then). :roll: right so complex . The gs wasn't very complex at all.
Just enormously big?
Panajev2001a
25-May-2004, 12:26
I think it may be difficult for Sony to bolt something like a PVR graphics controller onto a system as complex as the PS3.. (or PS2 back then). :roll: right so complex . The gs wasn't very complex at all.
Just enormously big?
Oh stop it, leave the GS alone :P.
Megadrive1988
25-May-2004, 19:28
GS-lover! :P
Megadrive1988
25-May-2004, 20:52
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=dev&aid=3520
oh, looks like Sammy is getting a new low-end board powered by PowerVR as well as Sega's new high-end board.
Imagination working on next-generation arcade systems for Sega
Rob Fahey 16:16 25/05/2004
High end arcade board to be delivered early next year
British technology firm Imagination is preparing to deliver a new arcade system to Sega at the start of next year, according to the company's financial statements, which will be based on the firm's next-generation graphics system.
Imagination - which owns the PowerVR brand of graphics accelerator technology, the latest iteration of which will be used in the new Sega cabinets - previously supplied technology for Sega projects including the Dreamcast and the Naomi arcade cabinets.
The firm is also working with Sammy on a new arcade board development, although it's not thought to be cutting edge technology - Sammy has generally preferred to focus on low-cost solutions rather than high end systems.
The new Sega board would be the first arcade hardware to be developed by the Japanese giant since the Naomi boards, which benefited from being very similar in design to the Dreamcast. In recent years, Sega has focused on Microsoft's Chihiro arcade boards, which are based on the Xbox architecture, and is expected to work increasingly on Sammy's Atomiswave platform - which is not dissimilar to Naomi - in future.
The news that Imagination is to supply technology for a new cutting-edge Sega arcade system comes following the decision of gambling machine and arcade giant Sammy to complete its acquisition of the Japanese publisher, in which it purchased a 22 per cent stake late last year.
Sammy president - and now Sega chairman - Hajime Satomi has said since the acquisition that he wants to see Sega focusing increasingly on the profitable arcade business, which has in recent years been compensating for losses in the company's home console software division.
I suppose we'll see something somewhat more powerful than Atomiswave for Sammy, in addition to the high-end Sega.
Megadrive1988
25-May-2004, 20:54
ack, dp.
Could be a low ram version of Naomi2 just like Atomiswave is a low ram version(a DC basically)of the Naomi.
I can't wait to see the new SEGA cutting edge arcade board :twisted:
Megadrive1988
25-May-2004, 22:17
Could be a low ram version of Naomi2 just like Atomiswave is a low ram version(a DC basically)of the Naomi.
yeah, it could very well be just that, a lower end version of NAOMI2.
Atomiswave will follow the lead of Naomi since it can leverage the existing base of hardware and developer experience from the already-established standard.
... and of course because it's very scalable technology.
Megadrive1988
26-May-2004, 00:00
Sega has almost always operated its arcade operations with a high-low mix. examples:
the standard System 16 board and higher end Super Scaler boards with 2 or 3 68000s,
System 16/18/24 and System 32
ST-V and Model 2
Model 2 and Model 3
NAOMI and NAOMI 2
seems that Sega-Sammy is again going with a high-low mix.
namco did the same with System 22 and System 11, then System 12 and System 23.
the U.S. military often operates like this. complex and powerful F-15s on the highend plus a larger number of cheaper, simpler F-16s on the lowend.
PowerVR has always had the advantage of scalablilty. with their first generation series, they had plans to use single chip versions in PC cards and consoles, providing N64-class or somewhat better performance, and 4 chip solutions for arcades, providing roughly Model 3 performance. (Namco's cancelled System 33 board).
If SEGA is to focus on the arcade more and the home market less then I do see Sammy regretting the takeover of SEGA. SEGA will become profitable in the home market again but Sammy can't expect the arcade market to explode full of growth unless they focus and try to revive the market in North America. No clue on th esituation in Europe.
If SEGA is to focus on the arcade more and the home market less then I do see Sammy regretting the takeover of SEGA. SEGA will become profitable in the home market again but Sammy can't expect the arcade market to explode full of growth unless they focus and try to revive the market in North America. No clue on th esituation in Europe.
THe problem with the arcades is that home consoles are just as powerfull or close enough now that there is no reason to go.
we have one arcade near us (sports world) and it gets like 4 new games a year . Its slowly going out of busniess too.
They need to do something diffrent . Mabye try to get more machines into movie thearters and airports and stuff ?
Megadrive1988
26-May-2004, 03:12
true virtual reality (not the gimmicky crude ones) that offer decent graphics and a level of interaction & immersion that won't be afford on XB2, N5, PS3, is what the arcades need to get people to come back.
akira888
26-May-2004, 09:42
megadrive:
There has been no new arcade hardware since the almost three year old Chihoro hardware. This is a virtually unprecendented situation as even during the 32-bit "era" there was constantly new boards using (especially 3dfx chips) the latest PC hardware, and before that (8 and 16 bit eras) there was always new hardware.
No clue on th esituation in Europe.
Arcades are DEAD in france, almost all the arcades closed theirs doors (especially in Paris), very few survived.
Only the Sega subsidiary company/Joint venture "La Tête dans les Nuage" are not all closed.
In Germany also, the market is clinically dead.
The arcades have to offers gameplay experience that people can't have at their home... A thing that arcades couldn't do since a long time ago, IMHO.
If SEGA is to focus on the arcade more and the home market less then I do see Sammy regretting the takeover of SEGA.
That will be a strange strategy for Sega/Sammy, since here lately Sega-Europe is doing "the forcing" to be a "big" publisher (not developer), they multiplied the number of published titles (Worms 3D, Warhammer Online, ...).
Do you think that Sammy will make them "change the order of their priorities"?
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